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  • #16
    My assessment is that Hammer is generally in pretty good health at the moment, Discus looks a lot better with Okoye around, Shot is fairly meh apart from Lincoln (who I have a lot of respect for) and Javelin is a total trashfire.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by carterhatch View Post
      been waiting for a chance to follow up my last post... and someone line Ursus to reply...

      Scot Lincoln has just thrown a PB - 20.81 - still a little short of OQ, but a decent effort. We have Lawrence Okoye back in the discus game, but still to throw an OQ, and men's hammer has Nick Miller with an OQ, and a couple bubblinh underneath ... what's the assessment folks?
      my assessment is keep your fingers crossed; they must at least beat the UK standards otherwise selection will be problematic.

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      • #18
        I think both Taylor Campbell and Lawrence Okoye can get the Olympic qualifying standard in the coming weeks. If they don't Lawrence is in a World Rankings spot and Taylor is just outside. If they do get a World Rankings invite these are 2 I could actually see British Athletics accepting.

        Sadly I think Sophie McKinna will be our only female thrower in Tokyo.

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        • #19
          Who’d have thought 9 years ago in London that Okoye would be struggling to attain the automatic qualifier? At that point we were busy hanging golds and WRs around his neck.

          Back then he was inconsistent with the ability to pull out the big one. Now the reverse seems to be true - all his 13 comps since his return last year have been in a 3.5m range between 62.07 and 65.56. That suggests a grooved technique which is excellent, but I really want to see some very long distances from him. He’s capable.

          This country has produced some very frustrating athletes over time, but he’s right at the top of my list.

          Really hope Campbell and McKinna go. To get a spear chucker over there we’re going to have go on an emergency recruitment drive to Germany or Scandinavia - no-one close to the right orbit.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Ursus View Post
            Who’d have thought 9 years ago in London that Okoye would be struggling to attain the automatic qualifier? At that point we were busy hanging golds and WRs around his neck.

            Back then he was inconsistent with the ability to pull out the big one. Now the reverse seems to be true - all his 13 comps since his return last year have been in a 3.5m range between 62.07 and 65.56. That suggests a grooved technique which is excellent, but I really want to see some very long distances from him. He’s capable.

            This country has produced some very frustrating athletes over time, but he’s right at the top of my list.

            Really hope Campbell and McKinna go. To get a spear chucker over there we’re going to have go on an emergency recruitment drive to Germany or Scandinavia - no-one close to the right orbit.
            Okoye was at the lower end of the range tonight...62m and bits. Hope i am wrong, but i am not convinced that the 68 metres guy of 2012 is around anymore.

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            • #21
              It’s hard to know how Okoye will fair, I’m not too concerned about him throwing the qualifying standard, I think it will come when he gets a favourable wind somewhere, perhaps in Germany. The problem is he has no major championship experience of late and hasn’t competed against the top guys much since he came back. He might find himself a fish out of water.

              Strickler threw a PB in Gateshead in atrocious conditions, which is a good sign and is quite close to a ranking berth in 33rd.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by treadwater1 View Post
                It’s hard to know how Okoye will fair, I’m not too concerned about him throwing the qualifying standard, I think it will come when he gets a favourable wind somewhere, perhaps in Germany. The problem is he has no major championship experience of late and hasn’t competed against the top guys much since he came back. He might find himself a fish out of water..
                I have closely followed the Okoye story from the outset, and there have been a number of twists and turns, with who knows what next chapter from this Olympics. Yet, no matter how greatly pleased I am for him, there was equal joy too for Scott Lincoln and his OQ this weekend. This added to Taylor Campbell's excellent throw to achieve his own qualifier, means it has been a fine fortnight for British, men's. throwing.

                It is such a pity that a nation of Sanderson, Whitebread and Backley, is sturggling in Javelin. Am I being greedy, should I just enjoy the achievements of the other throws. Well, perhaps yes, but Javelin needs to be put on 'special measures' of some kind, bur otherwise, it is going to be great to cheer on a few Brits in the throws and rejoice in the blood curdling scream of Sophie Mckinna

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                • #23
                  A lot to be encouraged by in the heavy throws. Not hanging any medals around necks but if any of Miller, Campbell or Okoye are near their best they won’t be too far away. Shame Hitchon’s not part of it.

                  As for the spear…..

                  Hughes has thrown 80 and is capable of more, but now bedevilled by elbow problems, which is not good news. Whiteaker is perfectly capable of 80 too. 80 though is only the entry to international class. There’s been plenty of good junior talent over the years that hasn’t kicked on for one reason or another.

                  On the women’s side the cupboard is bare with no-one even threatening 60. Interesting that 16 of our all time top 30 set their PBs as U20 or U23, which suggests retention / injury / coaching issues. That includes Kelly Morgan who was another big what might have been.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Ursus View Post
                    A lot to be encouraged by in the heavy throws. Not hanging any medals around necks but if any of Miller, Campbell or Okoye are near their best they won’t be too far away. Shame Hitchon’s not part of it.

                    As for the spear…..

                    Hughes has thrown 80 and is capable of more, but now bedevilled by elbow problems, which is not good news. Whiteaker is perfectly capable of 80 too. 80 though is only the entry to international class. There’s been plenty of good junior talent over the years that hasn’t kicked on for one reason or another.

                    On the women’s side the cupboard is bare with no-one even threatening 60. Interesting that 16 of our all time top 30 set their PBs as U20 or U23, which suggests retention / injury / coaching issues. That includes Kelly Morgan who was another big what might have been.
                    Ahh yes, Kelly Morgan. I remember watching her throw the then British record at Sportcity in 2002, and thinking she would go on to good things in the sport. And I think she was only 21/22 when she did that. And yet, 2 years after that throw, she was virtually out of the sport entirely. (Outside of an abortive attempt at a comeback in 2010 where she could only manage to throw the spear 43m and 47m, and promptly retired for good shortly afterward)

                    Javelin in this country, on the men's and women's side, have been a joke since Backley, Hill retired, and Goldie Sayers was forced to retire due to injury when effectively at the top of her game. I don't know what needs to be done to rectify this situation, because it is not looking great for the next decade with how it is currently going.

                    Hopefully Max Law can push through and show some of that promise as a junior (which he still is) a couple of years ago, but he's regressed a little bit since reaching the Euro U18 final in 2018

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                    • #25
                      Scot Lincoln following his wonder throw a couple of days ago that took him beyond 21 meters for the first time in his career (and the first time a British man has thrown beyond that barrier since serial underachiver and one time drugs cheat Carl Myerscough (yuck) did it 18 years ago), Lincoln came 5th at the Kladno meeting with a best of 20.58m

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                      • MysteryBrick
                        MysteryBrick commented
                        Editing a comment
                        He has got to the level where a bad day for him is still over 20m. That is an excellent place to be.

                        I do wonder who is going to pick up the mantle behind him. Lewis Byng hasn't done much this year, not sure why.

                    • #26
                      Like I did for the lappers, I looked at the vintages of our top 30 men’s spearists. The numbers are quite interesting, to me at least.

                      00s...........0

                      90s............7

                      80s............6

                      70s............4

                      60s...........10

                      50s............3

                      60s obviously a vintage era - Backley, Hill, Roberson, Bradstock, me (sadly not on list)

                      But nearly half are fairly recent vintage from the 80s and 90s. Only one of those - Luckwell - is in the top 9, with Neiland the next youngest from 1972.

                      I think this helps bear out what I’ve always said - good, if not world beating, talent is being produced but not harnessed.

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                      • MysteryBrick
                        MysteryBrick commented
                        Editing a comment
                        Completely agree. We seem to have lots of juniors throwing near 70 who end up broken...

                    • #27
                      There's an interesting article by Dan Pfaff on the AW home page about javelin: .The art of javelin throwing - AW (athleticsweekly.com) I wonder do we need to recruit people from other sports who might have an affinity for the javelin if they tried it?

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                      • #28
                        Since my last comments we have seen Lincoln, Okoye and Taylor Campbell all achieve the Olympic qualifier in their events. Well done all... I would be very happy if they now progress with PBs in Tokyo. The only men's throw that is letting the team down is Javelin.

                        I ask again, Ursus, give me a 5 point plan for improving this event, for both men and women, and cc it to British Athletics.


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                        • #29
                          Not sure about a five point plan. Fifty maybe!

                          The UK champs are the best we have. For some athletes just getting there is their big achievement.

                          One of the good things about the weekend’s coverage was that we got a good look at athletes who are in the upper reaches of our rankings but aren’t elite so don’t normally get exposure. Virtually without exception their techniques were nothing exceptional and there wasn’t a great deal of real athleticism either (except Whiteaker who had too much of it).

                          Coaching’s a huge part of it, it’s a very technical and physically demanding event. So the one win is to make sure the talent we have gravitates to the best coaches available (and I don’t care if that’s Mike McNeil or someone from Germany or Finland). Investment in coaches is a big thing - it’s obvious that many throwers get to a certain level pretty quickly on talent and then don’t progress through what should be their peak years.

                          So I’m pretty certain we don’t make the most of the talent we do have. But is there enough talent in the first place? This is largely cyclical but should we do more talent ID? This isn’t a one size fits all event - Vetter and Zelezny are poles apart in physique, likewise Yego and Rohler. Actively hunting out talent with have a go sessions might unearth some gems - that’s how British Cycling found Olympic Gold medalist Jo Roswell.

                          Also I know that Hill and Roberson do a bit of coaching, but what about Backley, Sanderson, Whitbread and Sayers, Olympic medallists all and, as such, inspirational figures for youngsters or potential coaches Massive wealth of knowledge - have they offered to be involved, have they been asked? Add to that the likes of Nieland and plenty of others too.

                          But as the hammer (and spear back in the day) has shown there’s nothing like peer pressure. If Hughes had got consistently over 80 then I suspect others would have raised their game a bit too. Although admittedly that theory currently falls down in the mSP.

                          The governing bodies need to take failing events seriously. But budgets are limited and it probably feels a bit too much like hard work.

                          If I am forced to come up with a five point plan it’s COACHING, COACHING, COACHING, COACHING and more COACHING.
                          Last edited by Ursus; 28-06-21, 13:49.

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                          • MysteryBrick
                            MysteryBrick commented
                            Editing a comment
                            It is coaching coaching coaching. We seem to have a number of good Hammer coaches bringing juniors up, and it's now got to the stage where throwing 70m isn't going to get you anywhere, it has to be 73, 74, which pushes those who are very good to be excellent. Go back to 2008 - no men over 70m that year, 15 over 60m. This year already it is 6 over 70m and 21 over 60m, and in 2019 (last full year) it was 8 over 70. We may soon get to the level where we have 10 over 70m year on year, and if that keeps happening some of them will end up at 74, 76 etc. and that is where you get truly World Class athletes. It is the same with middle distance - when very good is no longer good enough, some will become excellent.

                          • carterhatch
                            carterhatch commented
                            Editing a comment
                            Thanks Ursus, I hope someone from UKA reads this forum ... Tasha Danvers was engaging on the youtube chat so you never know.

                        • #30
                          The young Finn who won the U23s spear is one of a mere 39 Finns who have exceeded 80m.

                          Germany 'only' have 28 which I'm a bit surprised by, albeit one more 90m man - 5.

                          We have 12 listed on the World Athletics website, but I'm pretty sure one of those - Darryl Brand - is a mistake. A solitary 90m man in Backley and even he only threw that twice (I saw one of them), no-one else within 3m.

                          Finland's population is 5m.

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                          • MysteryBrick
                            MysteryBrick commented
                            Editing a comment
                            ...but then the Finnish 1500m record is 3:36.33, which would rank 11th in the UK this year. Different strokes for different folks.
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