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[larkim]

Mental health matters where people come from well off and more than adequate backgrounds too. I've got personal experience of two people in my family who got close to taking their own lives because they couldn't handle some of the pressures on themselves, pressures which I'd just take in my stride, and pressures which I'd have said those people were more than well equipped to deal with. So don't give me this crap about people excusing personal inadequacies; it's offensive, wrong, morally bankrupt and narrow minded. People are people, mental health can be frail despite outwards appearances, and if you've gone through your life without being exposed to people with those sorts of challenges, I'm jealous of you. At the end of the day, all pro athletes are just human like the rest of us and deserve the dignity of being helped to stay well, physically and mentally. If Ujah had taken a contaminated supplement, utterly without his knowledge, and the contamination had been a poison of some sort, would you leave him at the door of A&E telling him it was his own fault for his personal inadequacies? In the real world, rather than the quaint 1950s world that you seem to inhabit, mental health problems wreck lives across all ages, backgrounds, communities etc. I'm sure some people do use the current "trend" of mental health to mask some personal flaws of their own. But that doesn't mean that every flawed individual shouldn't be able to be open about any genuine mental health challenges they are facing and get support from whatever community they are part of, whether that's elite athletics or any other walk of life.

[larkim]

The point about "as flawed as the rest of us" is not made so that we shrug our shoulders and say "hey, s&1t happens from time to time". Of course pro athletes have an absolute responsibility to adhere to the rules / laws etc and of course they are entirely responsible for what goes into their bodies. If they misread a label or fail to keep up with what is or isn't allowed then they are absolutely as guilty as the intentional doper. My point was more that if we take a step back and recognise that mistakes and errors do happen, most of us go through our lives without making a mistake that has such enormous consequences. I can just see that if someone does make a stupid mistake and they are an individual 800m runner for example, the only person they have to deal with letting down is themselves. I think mentally that would be easier to deal with. But for a sprinter in a relay team once you've dealt with the selfish part about losing your own medal and the impact on you, there's the impact on the others. For some (not everyone) that burden could become so overwhelming. The last thing I want to read, especially if he is an unintentional doper, is that he's taken his own life because he couldn't handle what he'd done to others. 999 times out of 1000 it wouldn't come to that. But at some point it will, unless there is some form of support put in place.

[SprintRelayFan]

Ah I didn’t even know neita was his girlfriend, that’s how out of the loop I am.
I assumed he’d replaced gemili as that’s what the commentaters said at the time - maybe as kilty was in the team that ran the record?

[Sprintfan]

Blokes serving time probably get mental health support.

[Sovietvest]

cJ’s coach is Ryan freckleton - it’s difficult to see him as some conte like kingpin. Reider…I feel like this is not the first time there have been rumours.
Of Course the interesting thing is that if gemili, a reider athlete, hadn’t got injured, cj Would never have run in the relay…

I think the suggestion is that Ujah has links to Reider's group - was he training there over the winter with Nieta, his girlfriend?

Didn't Kilty replace Gemili. I'd assume CJ was always first choice on the first leg.

Anyway - "Rae's Takes" has gone very quiet on the story!

[SprintRelayFan]

Yeah, not putting shit in your body is literally the thing you have to do other than run fast. I was harsh on Reece for eating poorly, but consuming something contaminated is a whole new ball game.

[Occasional Hope]

I can't take him entirely seriously. In Tokyo he was claiming there was a big US star testing positive.

[SprintRelayFan]

Rae Edwards (former sprinter with a YouTube channel, Raes Take) is claiming that Okagbare is deploying the Tyson Gay defence: “I was taking HGH without my knowledge in products provided by my coach.” Gay was let off with 6 months and his coach, Drummond got 8 years. In a series of, let’s say, exuberant videos, he claims she has spoken to the FBI who are now investigating Rana Reider’s group for drug trafficking. He claims Utah is also acting as a whistleblower. “Bigger than Balco”, he says.
This guy is obviously keen to create traffic to hid YouTube channel but is claiming multiple sources.

cJ’s coach is Ryan freckleton - it’s difficult to see him as some conte like kingpin. Reider…I feel like this is not the first time there have been rumours.
Of Course the interesting thing is that if gemili, a reider athlete, hadn’t got injured, cj Would never have run in the relay…

[Laps]

Sovietvest - I was simply supporting philipo's sense of frustration with the way things are going in society not answering your's or larkim's posts. My second paragraph is my take on the C J Ujah situation.

The old classic 'everybody makes mistakes' or 'as flawed as the rest of us' (larkim's way of putting it) really aren't relevant to a professional athlete where doping controls are concerned. The harm to Athletics is much the same whether doping is deliberate or the result of stupidity, carelessness or intentional failure to find out what they are ingesting.

[larkim]

I'm not making any excuses for CJ whatsoever. I'm hypothesizing that beyond the black and white "you had this substance in your body" there *could* be a situation where Ujah is guilty on strict liability basis, and rightly sanctioned, but actually be relatively without fault. If that is the case, could you imagine bearing that burden? I know I couldn't without some help. I might be a complete snowflake, but I was just asking the question as to whether support is put in place to address that sort of situation. I get as sick and tired as anyone else at the nonsensical "defences" that dopers put up, but I am at least open to the possibility that a doping conviction could well arise from a series of unfortunate events.

[Sovietvest]

@ philipo and laps
Larkim said that an intentional doper should not get any support. He suggested support should be given to someone who inadvertently took something without "reading the label" and then loses their career and livelihood. I supported Larkim's sentiment.

How does Philipo infer from that that we were saying an athlete in these circumstances has "no moral authority" and it's "society's fault"

And Laps - what relevance has "victimhood mentality" - something I also abhor - got to do with Larkim's post?

[Laps]

I agree with you philipo. We were taught as children to take responsibility for our actions and the consequences. Now we seem to be developing a victimhood culture where people compete for sympathy and political advantage for all sorts of crap. What is considered the norm now will hopefully be regarded as bizarre in some future decade when sanity returns.
For what it is worth supporting dopers is not a cause I would give any resource to. On the contrary I would hope for stiffer punishments.

[philipo]

Mental health issues do matter in many many cases where ,for example, people come from cruel and inadequate backgrounds.
That is not the same as those people trying to excuse their foolishness , personal inadequacies and/or bad decision making on others which entitles them to state help.

[philipo]

I totally agree with the sentiments expressed here by Larkin - well said! Obviously mentioning “mental health” is a red rag to some people but wanting to support people who make mistakes in life and help them move on really shouldn’t be a controversial sentiment.

Now I understand moral responsibility doesn't matter anymore. It's not your fault its society and you need help. Jesus!! thank god not too many years left to listen to this; not what we taught our children .

[Sovietvest]

At the end of the day these people are human beings, as flawed as the rest of us. If he is an out and out cheat, intentionally doping to gain, then I'm on your side - he shouldn't need or benefit from any support or counselling from UKA etc.

But what if the real truth underlying his impending ban is that he was simply too stupid to read a label properly? He should 100% get banned, but would you find that easy to deal with mentally? You've stuffed up your life, you've stuffed up other people's lives, you've made what looks with hindsight to be a simple and stupid mistake and ruined everything you were working for. I know that would send me into a deep spiral of depression to deal with, and whilst I wouldn't for a minute want to row back on the athletics consequences of his actions or inactions, I wouldn't want to read a story in a few weeks or months about him taking his own life because he couldn't deal with the consequences.

That's what I was suggesting.

I have zero sympathy for intentional dopers, but I don't think it is that much of a stretch to have some concern for people who may have ended up in a sanctioned position where they are less intentional.

(And of course, it could well be the case that he will *say* it was unintentional, but in fact be entirely intentional - what matters is what he knows himself)

And it should have gone without saying that whatever support the rest of the relay squad wants / needs to help them get through this, they should get it in spades from UKA etc. I didn't think that would need spelling out.

I totally agree with the sentiments expressed here by Larkin - well said! Obviously mentioning “mental health” is a red rag to some people but wanting to support people who make mistakes in life and help them move on really shouldn’t be a controversial sentiment.