Shericka Jackson, SAFP and ETH

[Pierre Johansson]

I think it's time for a thread on this topic. A commenter on another thread wrote:

"The Jamaicans clean ? I think more likely than the Americans are not clean: look at the history. Their college system is an open question with the most incredible sudden improvements every year and it does not test a check in line fully with WADA requirements.The Jamaica trio will eventually retire and things will return to the USA general dominance. After all, what's with the great Mens Jamaican sprinters of 10 years ago. They are a great sprinting nation for such a small nation"

That's a hilarious thing to say. Shelly-Ann Fraser-Pryce was basically an 11.30 (100)-24.10 (200) runner before she joined Stephen Francis' training group and, as ALL of his female trainees, showed up with braces... one year later she was the fastest woman in the world. Elaine Thompson was, as a 22yo, a 11.40 (100)-23.70 (200) runner before she joined Stephen Francis and showed up with braces... a little more than one year later she ran 21.66... Shericka Jackson was a 23.30 (200)-53.30 (400) runner when she joined Francis and, SHOCKINGLY with braces on, a couple of years later she was a medalist at the WC in the 400, and she is now the fastest woman in the world.

I could continue with Melaine Walker, Sherone Simpson, et al, but I think you get the drill. With a more or less none-existent out-of-competition testing program for many years, and the fact that every athlete is allowed to "miss" 2 tests every year, Francis and certain other "super coaches" in Jamaica should be viewed with strong suspicion, to say the least. By all means, criticise the Americans if you feel like it. But don't give me "the Jamaicans are the true, clean, World Record holders" bullcr*p. If anything, I'd say DAS is probably much closer to the "true" 200 meter world record holder than all of the Stephen Francis products are.

[Loop-guru]

I am trying to get my Partner to join as Mrs Loop Guru and offer voxpop style voice of the people comments. For now they will have to come filtered through me. On this subject Mrs Loop Guru when presented with the "facts" stated "Could it be he knows what he is doing". Which I think could be taken two different ways.

[Mikka]

If you weigh up the evidence, however circumstantial, then the 'doping' side is much heftier than the 'clean' side. We can't say beyond reasonable doubt that they have cheated, but I'd be more surprised to learn that they're clean. Unlikely they'll be caught because you have to be stupid (Okagbare) or careless (Ujah) to fail a test in competition. I wouldn't be surprised if ETH isn't using anymore, now that she's left Francis.

[Occasional Hope]

It seems vanishingly unlikely that they're not getting lots of out of competition testing though.

[Mikka]

It wasn't great in 2018 (see table 1 here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7525253/ , not every elite athlete had an IAAF out-of-competition test; 69 elite athletes and only 62 tests). And in previous years the situation was worse.

[Mikka]

and then COVID, of course...

[Christy93]

Lets look at the global sub 10.80 lists minus the Jamaicans...

Flo-Jo - Say no more.
Jeter - Say no more.
Jones - Say no more.
Richardson - Coached by Dennis Mitchell.
Gardner - Coached by John Smith at the time of her 10.73.
Arron - Frankly a beautiful freak of nature at her best.
Ashford - Who knows, but she and Connolly (who famously said 40% of US female athletes were on steroids in Seoul) were rather dropped in it by Charlie Francis back in the late 80s.
Campbell-Brown - Say no more.
Privalova - A Russian in the 90s...
Lalova - That 10.77 is about accurate as my weighing scales
Edwards - Banned for stimulant in 2004.
Okagbare - Say no more.
Xuemei - Say no more.
Inger Miller - Say no more.

Few others who scraped under once (Sowell, Ahoure, Ta Lou, Bartoletta, Stewart) whom I really can't be arsed researching, because I think I have made my point.

If you look at that list and still conclude the three Jamaican women routinely running sub 10.8, as well as two almost routinely running sub 10.7 in the past 2 years, are probably clean... Then idk what to say. The more I research the more it stinks and frankly it has made me quite angry because of the longevity - Four Olympic cycles and counting.

[Christy93]

Lets look at the global sub 10.80 lists minus the Jamaicans...

Flo-Jo - Say no more.
Jeter - Say no more.
Jones - Say no more.
Richardson - Coached by Dennis Mitchell.
Gardner - Coached by John Smith at the time of her 10.73.
Arron - Frankly a beautiful freak of nature at her best.
Ashford - Who knows, but she and Connolly (who famously said 40% of US female athletes were on steroids in Seoul) were rather dropped in it by Charlie Francis back in the late 80s.
Campbell-Brown - Say no more.
Privalova - A Russian in the 90s...
Lalova - That 10.77 is about accurate as my weighing scales
Edwards - Banned for stimulant in 2004.
Okagbare - Say no more.
Xuemei - Say no more.
Inger Miller - Say no more.

Few others who scraped under once (Sowell, Ahoure, Ta Lou, Bartoletta, Stewart) whom I really can't be arsed researching, because I think I have made my point.

If you look at that list and still conclude the three Jamaican women routinely running sub 10.8, as well as two almost routinely running sub 10.7 in the past 2 years, are probably clean... Then idk what to say. The more I research the more it stinks and frankly it has made me quite angry because of the longevity - Four Olympic cycles and counting.

Late to it, but I have just seen the video of Jonathan Gault asking Shericka Jackson about her view on the legitimacy of Flo-Jo's WR. No issue with Shericka's response, but I take huge issue with the wider reaction.

Takes range from *racism pitting black women against eachother* (LOL) to *inappropriate to mention the elephant in the room*

Almost unanimous criticism of Gault for actually being a journalist and trying to scratch the surface of the HUGE integrity issue our sport faces, rather than trying to be the athletes' best friend.

Sooner or later athletes and fans need to wake up and realise this sport dies without addressing these taboos - When I watch athletics with casuals, I seldom speak to anybody who thinks a single race is clean, and they're often bemused by the fact it's all glossed over within the sport. How is that sustainable?

[LoveSprints1]

In the USA, Flo Jo is on a pedestal however, if you sit down with coaches and leading athletes in a quiet room, they tell you what they really think! They're not stupid, but sadly because she was never caught she holds the records, as Shericka said.

I'm just hoping Sydney can switch to the 400m and remove another tainted record from the books. Personally, I believe it should belong to SMU who is moving to the 200m now.

[LoveSprints1]

I am trying to get my Partner to join as Mrs Loop Guru and offer voxpop style voice of the people comments. For now they will have to come filtered through me. On this subject Mrs Loop Guru when presented with the "facts" stated "Could it be he knows what he is doing". Which I think could be taken two different ways.

I like Mrs Loop-Guru's enigmatic response!

Also interested that we don't look back often at the rumours around GB's own "great era" of track and field under Andy Norman et al.
Some veteran GB coaches allege that only one of our legends was clean and he now lives in Australia.

I'm interested too in the Netherlands and Dafne (acne runs in my family (allegedly) ) Schippers coached through her greatest years by the notoriously upstanding Rana Reider.

On another alleged doping note, what is happening with CJ Ujah? Anyone got an update?

[Mikka]

8 medals, I think. I'd be very surprised to hear doping allegations against 4 of the individual medallists, at least.

[Hammerklavier]

"Some veteran GB coaches allege that only one of our legends was clean and he now lives in Australia."

Oh really? And just who are these "veteran GB coaches"?

Are you, or they, seriously suggesting that Coe, Cram, Thompson and Moorcroft were all taking drugs?

[LoveSprints1]

Thompson and Moorcroft haven't been mentioned. I am not seriously suggesting anything, just reporting what I have been told I am not here to name anyone, so will leave it as veteran GB coaches.

[marilyn1]

I think it's time for a thread on this topic. A commenter on another thread wrote:

"The Jamaicans clean ? I think more likely than the Americans are not clean: look at the history. Their college system is an open question with the most incredible sudden improvements every year and it does not test a check in line fully with WADA requirements.The Jamaica trio will eventually retire and things will return to the USA general dominance. After all, what's with the great Mens Jamaican sprinters of 10 years ago. They are a great sprinting nation for such a small nation"

That's a hilarious thing to say. Shelly-Ann Fraser-Pryce was basically an 11.30 (100)-24.10 (200) runner before she joined Stephen Francis' training group and, as ALL of his female trainees, showed up with braces... one year later she was the fastest woman in the world. Elaine Thompson was, as a 22yo, a 11.40 (100)-23.70 (200) runner before she joined Stephen Francis and showed up with braces... a little more than one year later she ran 21.66... Shericka Jackson was a 23.30 (200)-53.30 (400) runner when she joined Francis and, SHOCKINGLY with braces on, a couple of years later she was a medalist at the WC in the 400, and she is now the fastest woman in the world.

I could continue with Melaine Walker, Sherone Simpson, et al, but I think you get the drill. With a more or less none-existent out-of-competition testing program for many years, and the fact that every athlete is allowed to "miss" 2 tests every year, Francis and certain other "super coaches" in Jamaica should be viewed with strong suspicion, to say the least. By all means, criticise the Americans if you feel like it. But don't give me "the Jamaicans are the true, clean, World Record holders" bullcr*p. If anything, I'd say DAS is probably much closer to the "true" 200 meter world record holder than all of the Stephen Francis products are.

Just the sort of I know best
stuff I expected from this poster. How the hell this poster is fully conversant with the lack of testing in Jamaica nobody knows.
The sudden improvements by american athletes across the boards is an inconvenient fact from some, I know, but the biggest cheats and phonies are the USA sitting in hypocritical judgment
on the Russians, and others and their wonder college athletes are not fully tested in accordance with WADA rules.

[Loop-guru]

Sorry in 1986 we won 16 medals in total - 3 gold 6 silver and 7 Bronze.

I just found an article and here is a little snippet.

The World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) tests blood and urine samples from several hundred thousand Olympic athletes every year. About 1 to 2 percent of these samples test positive for prohibited substances, but actual instances of doping are estimated to be significantly more widespread. In one anonymous survey of several thousand world-class amateur athletes, up to 57 percent admitted to using performance-enhancing drugs in the past year, according to a study published in the journal Sports Medicine.

This was from an article published by Live Science in 2018 so is probably still quite accurate.

It also states that anabolic steroids are by far the most common way to boost performance and there are up to 500 different chemical processes that achieve this goal with new methods being developed all the time. The new methods are generally impossible to detect initially.

[Loop-guru]

It seems the problem has been with us a while

776 BC - 393 BC - Ancient Greeks Use Performance Enhancing Drugs

"The use of drugs to enhance performance in sports has certainly occurred since the time of the original Olympic Games [from 776 to 393 BC]. The origin of the word 'doping' is attributed to the Dutch word 'doop,' which is a viscous opium juice, the drug of choice of the ancient Greeks."


Larry D. Bowers, PhD "Athletic Drug Testing," Clinics in Sports Medicine, Apr. 1, 1998

"The ancient Olympic champions were professionals who competed for huge cash prizes as well as olive wreaths... Most forms of what we would call cheating were perfectly acceptable to them, save for game-fixing. There is evidence that they gorged themselves on meat -- not a normal dietary staple of the Greeks -- and experimented with herbal medications in an effort to enhance their performances...The ancient Greek athletes also drank wine potions, used hallucinogens and ate animal hearts or testicles in search of potency."

"Winning, Cheating Have Ancient Roots," Washington Post, Aug. 3, 2007

[alfie]

I am not so naive as to think all athletic performances are clean. But I think it is a bit sad to be spending too much time and effort focusing on what "might" be suspicious ... if I were doubting every good result I think I would probably have given up watching the sport by now.

Keep my own reservations inside ; and treat them all as "innocent until proved guilty" is how I manage. But each to his own...

[Christy93]

I agree to a point, and "Innocent until proven guilty" is perfectly fine, right up until the moment reality is staring you in the face. For me, that moment is right now for some athletes.

[Pierre Johansson]

Just the sort of I know best
stuff I expected from this poster. How the hell this poster is fully conversant with the lack of testing in Jamaica nobody knows.
The sudden improvements by american athletes across the boards is an inconvenient fact from some, I know, but the biggest cheats and phonies are the USA sitting in hypocritical judgment
on the Russians, and others and their wonder college athletes are not fully tested in accordance with WADA rules.

So your best response is a non sequitur? You didn't refute any of my claims (it's really not that hard to learn about the absolute joke that is the "Jamaica Anti-Doping Commission"), but you did obsess about the Americans again. I've never said, and would never say, that I think all the American athletes are clean or that the American and non-American NCAA athletes shouldn't be tested according to WADA rules. The reason most people are/were far harsher towards the Russians/Soviets and other dictatorships and Third World countries than Western countries with doping issues is that it comes/came from the top, i.e. the politicians and the state, in those cases. The United States does not even have a Minister of Sports, so to say you're a hypocrite if you get far more indignant over state sponsored doping on a massive scale (such as in East Germany, the Soviet Union, the Russian Federation, etc. etc.) than the NCAA's anti-doping rules is laughable. And just the sort of stuff I expected from you.

[Hammerklavier]

"......If anything, I'd say DAS is probably much closer to the "true" 200 meter world record holder than all of the Stephen Francis products are."[/QUOTE]


I'd certainly agree that DAS appears to be the most naturally gifted of them all. She's been winning everything since she was a tot, and still holds the world age 13 best for 300m (39.16). The speed with which she can recover fitness after serious injury (eg, her remarkable 4th place in the 2017 World 200m after breaking her foot earlier in the year) also points to great natural ability. I doubt it will ever happen, but it would be interesting to see what she could do if she were to join one of these super-sprinter training groups, and also have the benefit of year round warm weather training.

[Pierre Johansson]

I'd certainly agree that DAS appears to be the most naturally gifted of them all. She's been winning everything since she was a tot, and still holds the world age 13 best for 300m (39.16). The speed with which she can recover fitness after serious injury (eg, her remarkable 4th place in the 2017 World 200m after breaking her foot earlier in the year) also points to great natural ability. I doubt it will ever happen, but it would be interesting to see what she could do if she were to join one of these super-sprinter training groups, and also have the benefit of year round warm weather training.

I wouldn't necessarily say she's "the most naturally gifted of them all", but compared to the Jamaican "from mediocre to monsters in 1 year" sprinters, she's on another level.

The Jamaicans have three young girls (Brianna Lyston and the Clayton twins) that I think ARE natural talents. Unfortunately, the Clayton twins are already on their way to Francis. Lyston will join LSU and coach Dennis Shaver.

I have my reservations about Lance Brauman, the coach of Shaunae Miller-Uibo, Jereem Richards and Noah Lyles, too, but I'd rather see DAS join his group than any of the Jamaican magician coaches.

[Ladyloz]

Dina's sponsored by Nike and Brauman is an Adidas sponsored athlete. So never going to happen.

Dina won't leave John Blackie. If that was ever going to occur it would have done so 5/6 years ago IMO.

[Pierre Johansson]

Agreed. And that's a good thing. I was just thinking out loud that I'd rather see her in that group than in Francis or his protégé Reynaldo Walcott's (SAFP's current coach) group IF she ever wanted a change in scenery (sponsorships can change, too, obviously). No braces for DAS, please.

[Pierre Johansson]

Speaking of the Commonwealth Games, has anybody noticed who coaches Sada Williams and Janieve Russell these days? None other than Stephen Francis, who keeps raking in that bling! Janieve may be 28, but it's never too late for braces. When you join Francis, it seems like it's sort of a twofer - "the greatest coach in the history of athletics" + great dental care. No braces for Sada SO FAR. May mean there's even more to come from her next year and in Paris '24.