'Project sub 3' - A proposal for men's 4 x400 relay

[marilyn1]

I think a lot of people took for granted just how good we had it in this country with regards to 400m talent on the men's side. To have *four* blokes with season's bests under 44.7 must seem like almost a fairy tale if you told it to people now... except yourself, me and others on this board saw it with our own eyes!

Hopefully we'll be getting back to those days soon, and with AHW, Dobson and Ed Faulds all being young and talented enough, maybe those days will be seen sooner than expected.

Those halcyon GB days dont come along that often, but I suppose miracles happen. Don't lets forget that the team that ran so brilliantly in the mid 1990s also beat the almighty USA in 1991 at Tokyo.

[carterhatch]

something to watch on these dark nights... Roger Black 'Ask the Athlete Q&A'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdwdlksOH9Q&ab_channel=AthleticsWeekly

He is 6 months younger than me but looks as if he could still run a sub 45!

[Stew-Coach]

Just digging this thread back out.

As its worth everyone paying a little attention to the relays this weekend over in Loughbough, as an effort has been made to have as many domestic top 400m runners be competing in the relays and to make them each competitive to see better racing and hopefully be able to push those splits and of course what's better practice than an actual relay!

[carterhatch]

As if the chance to see KJT running in a 4x400 wasn't enough, now you have me all excited, Stew-coach! Pity I cant afford the stream! {I am sure it was televised by the Beeb back in the day...]

[Stew-Coach]

I didn't even realise it was on runnerspace! frankly that's appalling

[carterhatch]

Stew-Coach

Thanks for the insight from LIA 2023. I haven't been able to see the men's 4x400 from the event, but from what you have hinted to on another thread I think Project Sub-3 is making progress.

I followed up the instagram link you posted about the 45.1 split... hence ... If all the main contenders stay fit. healthy and happy there is a chance we can move onto Project Sub2.58 [ MHS- Dobson-Faulds-AHW ]

[Stew-Coach]

Initial stats show:
Ed - 45.1 / Alex 45.5 / Ben 45.6 / Joe 46.0 / Sam and Rio 46.1

As an example

PS, can watch the men's here (on my drive)- https://1drv.ms/v/s!An0_VQGI9z1gkGIH...5lDBE?e=2hIVqa

[carterhatch]

Many thanks Stew- Coach, thoroughly enjoyed watching that race, there are very few events more thrilling than a close 4x400...

[RunUnlimited]

Anyone hoping that with KJT representing an England quartet in yesterday's 4x400m at the Loughborough International, that it might indicate that she possibly could do more in the future.... Yeah, that's most definitely not happening.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1660616157802426369

An amusing interview she did with AW post said relay race.

[MysteryBrick]

With Ed Faulds now running 46.04 in Cyprus today, I suggest that the best GB men's 4x400 for Budapest is (if all fit) basically decided. I would go MHS - Dobson - AHW - Faulds, and suggest that foursome is well equipped to run 2:58 at least, with something like MHS 44.8, Dobson 44.5, AHW 44.5, Faulds 44.8 = 2:58.6.

[jjimbojames]

We got 44.3 (Dobson) and 44.5 (AHW) last year - I’d like to think they could go quicker in 2023 and with only one champs to focus on. I’d imagine they’d leave AHW on anchor - a lot of pressure for the youngster to anchor in a WC final, and AHW ran a measured, tactical leg to secure the gold last year

[MysteryBrick]

I'd normally agree, but having seen Faulds split a solo 44.9 as an U20 and then run a 46.1 indoors before injury, I just think he has *it*, and would thrive under the pressure.

[MysteryBrick]

Martyn Rooney anchored GB as a first year U23 in 2007, and although Faulds has dramatically less Champs experience I think he is every bit as good.

[jjimbojames]

Not saying he’s not good enough - more whether selectors would take the risk!

[carterhatch]

Oh dear ... watching the Rabat DL did my project no good. I don't know the extent of the injury that caused MHS to pull-up ... cramp, possibly, but knowing his luck... AHW looked less than impressive, I could seek mitigation, inside lane, two races in a week, the occasion, et al, but it is one step forward two steps back ...

[MysteryBrick]

I'm willing to give AHW a pass, two races in two days in different continents is daft, and the 45.5 was much better.

MHS... fingers crossed!

[carterhatch]

I thought it too ambitious to call it Project Sub2.58 but always knew that this target is where we needed to aim to be on podium in Paris.

The lads in Budapest with their 2:58.71 took a huge leap towards this goal. Without the absent MHS, the fastest individual, a team of very young, inexperienced one-lappers took bronze and this should be rightly applauded for its own achievement.

AHW had it tough in lane 9 but kept us in the race. I must confess, though, until he runs a sub 45 individual I remain unconvinced he will trouble the world’s elite, but a key member of quartet selection for sure.

Dobson is without doubt a special talent but his injury record puts him up there with Darren Anderton [for those of you who understand such reference]. I don’t think his body can yet cope with a workload of 200/400 training. For the time being, his cameos in 400 relays will do the job for Paris if he repeats the splits achieved in Budapest.

Many are quick to note that Lewis Davey had the ‘slowest’ split of the 4. True, he did. Yet, what is most telling to me is his post race interviews. He seems comparatively ‘shy’ in front of camera, which matters not, except I sense this reflects a lack of confidence in his running. Give him another winter, lots of mentoring from Rooney and he will continue to make progress.

Rio Mitchum was the revelation. He clearly is someone on an upward trajectory, demonstrating not only the physical prowess for one lap, but also the grit and determination to compete at the highest level. Staying ahead of the newly crowned world champion was a very special run. Another winter’s work, backed by some funding, and there is a sub 45 runner itching to make Paris.

There are others; Ed Faulds has showed he will be part of the conversation if he can remain fit and healthy. Paris might be a little too soon for young Charlie Carvel but longer term he could well be involved. Joe Brier ‘took one for the team’ and for this alone warrants continued inclusion, while one might expect Brodie Young to be involved if it were not for NCAA commitments. Another name will almost certainly emerge.

it will take Sub2.58 to podium in Paris, but the prospects certainly look much better than when I started this thread.

Onwards and upwards, gentleman.

[MysteryBrick]

Semi-official splits (recorded using a high speed camera) had both Dobson and Mitcham splitting sub-44 - those, combined with a World medalist on leg 1, give you 3/4 of a high quality relay team. If someone else develops to be capable of a 44-low regularly (could be AHW or another) then you have a relay team capable of Gold, not just a medal.

[Loop-guru]

I agree, we are pretty much there. AHW can split 44.4 so if MHS had come in and ran at his best then the difference between him and Lewis Davey when he ran his lead off leg would heve produced a differential of nearly 2 seconds so we currently have an optimum time of 44.3 / 43.7 / 44.4 / 43.8 which equals 2:55:9 The current crop look more than capable of taking down the UK record next year.

[MysteryBrick]

I will counter my enthusiasm with the acknowledgement that it needs a lot of things to go right, and I would love the team to have more depth in terms of 44.x legs, but it is pleasing we're going in the right direction and could run 2:58 even with leg 3 splitting 45.3.

[philipo]

2.55.90 is a hell of a difference from the 2.58s which seems likely next year for a number of teams.USA couldn't this year yet they have proven top 400m guys in the individual.

[MysteryBrick]

But those guys actually split slower than the GB guys - Benjamin was slower than Mitcham and Norwood slower than Dobson (of course their other two legs were much better than our 1 and 3, hence the fact they won). The excitement is around having two guys who have run remarkably quick legs, along with an individual medalist.

[Christy93]

I struggle to see 2.56, let alone 2.55 - But we clearly have a couple of dynamite relay runners in Dobson and Mitcham, I'd allow them to make L2 and L4 their own. MHS on L1. That leaves L3 up for grabs - AHW the obvious name, but I wouldn't be shocked if Ed Faulds claims it. He has ended his season early, but did so healthy on a high note and I really hope he survive winter in good health - If so, his PB is ripe for revision.

This group should be capable of 2.57low - Any more would be a very pleasant surprise and any less a tad disappointing imo. An Olympic medal has to be the aim.

[marra]

I mean, 2:56.60 is the British record. The splits for that were Thomas 44.92, Baulch 44.19, Richardson 43.62, Black 43.87. According to power of 10.

Unofficial splits for this week are 45.7, 43.7, 45.3, 44.1. I think it is reasonable to expect that a fit MHS could match or potentially slightly better the Thomas time. And then the Baulch/Black legs are matched already. So we need to find someone else who could do a mid-to-high 43 somehow.

Personally I think that's a big ask. And I don't see it happening next year barring someone making a miraculous improvement.

I agree with Christy that I'd be more than happy with a 2:57-low

[Loop-guru]

MHS new european record would give us a .6 second improvement against Thomas. For the Baulch time it's a bit more tricky but I think Ed Faulds is going to be another sub 44 second relay runner so he could be the one

[jjimbojames]

OK - look at it this way.

Davey ran 45.7, in the heats AHW ran 44.4. Swap them out, you get 1.3 seconds.

AHW ran 45.7. In Munich, MHS 45.05 on lead off. Swap them out, you get 0.7 seconds.

Overall, you find two seconds and sub-2.58 becomes sub-2.56. All on one day is usually a big ask, so not saying it happens, but MHS, AHW splits are highly likely. Dobson is replicating quite well, and Mitcham is on the up - so you never know

[Loop-guru]

Also note that virtually the entire top 10 on PO10 are improving with 8 out of 10 setting PBs and all bar MHS (and even he is still improving) are at an age where further improvement could be expected and in the case of Ed Faulds, Charlie Carvell, Brodie Young it's not unreasonable to expect large chunks to be lopped off there PBs between now and Paris. There was even an athlete in the form of Joe Brier who would most likely have improved our final time by .6 of a second based on respective current pbs of him and Lewis Davey.

[carterhatch]

I remind myself that this thread was started on the 10th August 2021, as a result of the men's 4x400 coming sixth in their heat at Tokyo and therefore failing to make the final.

The current cohort have certainly turned things around in a way that I didn't think possible without serious intervention. I really hope that the several names mentioned can come through a strong block of winter training, keep fit and healthy, and further improve on the road to Paris.

I urge UK Athletics to take this into consideration when handing out the next round of 'funding' [remember no men's 4x400 relay funding was alloted] and that Martyn Rooney continues to be involved as, without any inside knowledge, I feel sure his influence has helped.

There is certainly the potential for a podium finish in Paris ...