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'Project sub 3' - A proposal for men's 4 x400 relay

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  • #16
    Some ideas for Project Sub 3. some have already been mentioned already so I am not taking credit here, just bringing them together.
    1. BMC style events aimed at getting as many athletes as possible under 45 - incentives and overall prize money at the final event - 4 events a year.
    2. Get 4x400m recognised a bit more at club level. National relay champs with area qualification required.
    3. More international 4x400 added whereever possible to existing fixtures.
    4. Cash incentive to go sub 45 and sub 44.
    5. Training camps to share ideas, bond, boost morale.

    Also most of these ideas could equally apply to womens 400m and 4x400m running..

    Comment


    • carterhatch
      carterhatch commented
      Editing a comment
      All good ideas... but what social media platform !!! I think most have a tiwtter account, but I don't - neither intend to- and I dont know if you can just make an unsolicited approach... OH FFS, I went to edit the original long list post and now it needs approving again!
      Last edited by carterhatch; 15-08-21, 12:03.

  • #17
    These things often are cyclical, and maybe it was the success of Ohuruogu, Sanders, or winning relay medals that inspired them, but it would be interesting to see what was the impetus for the women’s improvements, whilst the men have regressed from recent times, when we had Rooney, Bingham etc. Maybe now the 400m looks to be an easier route to a Champs compared to the 200m/800m, we’ll see a natural drift towards it again.

    Interesting tweet from Kris Akabussi about AHW being a potential 400H - he seems to have only tried it for a couple of races as an U17, but with some technical work, could be our next sub-49 guy

    Comment


    • carterhatch
      carterhatch commented
      Editing a comment
      Good to know Mr. Akabussi is still involved, I will copy him into the initial approach - he was specifically noted in my initial thoughts.

      For another day maybe, but the cycilical nature of some events is exacerbated by lack of succession planning. You have Mo Farah, it might inspire others, but if it doesn't, the suits at UKA can simply milk the glory, when he leaves stage right, there is a vacuum. Having Rooney,Yousuf, available didn't give a sense of urgency, probably didnt inspire in the same way either, and voila, the one prodigal talent flouders, and you have the perfect conditions for a gap in talent ... the same can be said for Triple Jump but I wont go on...
      Last edited by carterhatch; 17-08-21, 11:59.

    • RunUnlimited
      RunUnlimited commented
      Editing a comment
      @caterhatch

      Let me expand on your triple jump point then... It must be noted that by the Sydney Olympics in 2000, not only did Great Britain have the still world record holder (and soon to be Olympic champion) Edwards competing, but also had not one, but two other world class triple jump exponents (Philips Idowu, Larry Achike). We had a three pronged attack of athletes who competed and won either Olympic, World, Commonwealth and European (Edwards), World and European (Idowu) and Commonwealth (Achike) titles their career.
      Then, when Idowu was becoming one of the world's best triple jumpers, while Edwards had retired and Achike struggled with a host of injuries, along comes another 17 meter dude in Nathan Douglas, bursting onto the scene in the mid 2000's. But since Idowu's exit from athletics in 2014, the retirement of Achike in 2013 and with Douglas never realising the potential shown by his 17.64 m outburst in 2005, there has been a dearth of talented triple jumpers in Great Britain. Indeed, until Ben Williams jumped 17.27 in 2019, no British TJ had gone over 17 meters Idowu did so in 2012.

      There are some glimmers of hope though, with Daniel Falode's performances in Tallinn indicating that the 19 year old has the potential for much more in the future.

    • carterhatch
      carterhatch commented
      Editing a comment
      Thanks for filling out the detail RunUnlimited. I wasn't much of a physics student but it takes a lot less effort to keep a moving object, moving, than to get something started from standstill. Same can be said for athletic's talent, a great deal of momentum is generated when you have three world class competitors in an event, and surely its incumbent upon the governing body to make the most of this with effective 'succession planning', and not just sit back and hope the next generation are suitably inspired, that's a not a plan. When those world class competitors retire, their achievements only statistics, the woeful 'succession plan' in tatters, it takes an awful lot of effort to get started again... Men's 400, triple jump, javelin, the pattern is there for all to see ...

  • #18
    Originally posted by Ursus View Post

    Whisper it quietly but I do actually quite enjoy a relay. But where I differ from the rest of the world is that I consider them to be a bit of fun at the end of the program rather than an integral part of it.

    Having uttered that sacrilegious thought. I will now step out the back of the circle and leave this thread to those who know what they’re talking about.
    Another post that sums up my feelings.

    Comment


    • #19
      I will be suggesting to UK Athletics that some of this extra funding be used for 'Project Sub3' and a Talent Identification initiative 'Jump to Success' (encouraging gymnasts to try triple jump)

      https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/58222726

      Now if only AW would approve my posting [#16] for the 'long list' of potential athletes (admitedly for the second time) then I can make some progress.

      Comment


      • #20
        Gymnasts should try pv - they are usually small so the other jumps would put them at a disadvantage. Maybe we should be getting rugby types from the academies into throwing so if they do not make it as a player they can throw- Lawrence came from rugby as a thrower at school. The USA has an abundance of shot putters as they are linemen from football who do track in the summer so they are big men with the skill sets.

        Comment


        • carterhatch
          carterhatch commented
          Editing a comment
          You must be a mind reader, sportsfan! I have mentioned both ideas (current gymnasts to PV, rugby players to throws) repeatedly when the topic of talent ID is brought up... for triple jump I propose encouraging 'former' gymnasts, with that background in mastering complex moves, but have perhaps 'outgrown' the sport, physically and metaphorically.

      • #21
        Well, the rush to offer comments on my 'long list' has been .... under-whelming. Perhaps because my original post fell foul of the approval system (twice) and I guess people are taking a break from athletics post-Olympics or have decided, like two posters, what's the point.

        i did email
        Jason Henderson, Head of Digital at AW, (Why? to get post approval but also to broach the idea that AW get behind the project with a feature) but he is on leave.

        Interestingly he tweeted back on the 6th August


        'Robbie Brightwell anchored the GB 4x400m team to silver behind USA at Tokyo in 1964 in 3:01.6 on a cinder track. 57 years later the GB quartet is almost 2sec slower with 3:03.29. Not exactly British athletics' healthiest event right now.'


        Much like the Jack Nicholson character in 'One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest' said, 'Goddam it, at least I tried... '

        Comment


        • MysteryBrick
          MysteryBrick commented
          Editing a comment
          I don't think it's anything personal against you. My view is that the best way to have a good 4x400m is to have good 400m runners - this year has been a bit of a nadir at the top level but there are some more positive signs at U20 and U23 level, so we just have to see what happens. Some more localised funding targeted at talented younger 400m/200m/400mh runners would probably be a positive step, but beyond that im not sure of useful specifics.

      • #22
        Thanks Jogger, MysteryBrick... worth noting that Ben Pattison, mentioned on the longlist, ran a 800 PB in 1:45.7, still only 19 too. (courtesy of Ian Hodge Twitter 15/8) .

        Comment


        • jjimbojames
          jjimbojames commented
          Editing a comment
          Ben used to run the 400m - he won the ESSA title a couple of years ago, so has good speed down there

        • trickstat
          trickstat commented
          Editing a comment
          Yes 47.11 at 16. I am pretty confident he would be sub 46 with a flying start right now.

        • MysteryBrick
          MysteryBrick commented
          Editing a comment
          My general rule of thumb is that a male 800m runner has to be exceptional to work in an international 4x400m, and definitely be a clear 4/800m runner. Tony van Diepen was a notable example at the Olympics, but given he got silver at the 2021 European Indoors over 400m he could definitely be described as a specialist over 400m!

          Of the current British runners sub-1:46 Pattison and Burgin would be the two I would think could really do a job in a relay. Pattison ran 21.70 over 200m as an U17, so he has the speed! And Burgin... if he can get and remain fit (which being with Trevor Painter should surely improve) I shudder to think what he could run in a relay.

      • #23
        Having won a 200m earlier at the Manchester International, Alex Haydock-Wilson ran an unofficial 44.7 anchor leg split in a relay... Impressive day.
        Last edited by carterhatch; 18-08-21, 20:11.

        Comment


        • MysteryBrick
          MysteryBrick commented
          Editing a comment
          I think they had him marked down as a leg 1 historically, but this bodes well for a future on anchor.

        • treadwater1
          treadwater1 commented
          Editing a comment
          He will have been running with fire is his belly, that DQ at the British Champs cost him a place at the Olympics when he went into that weekend with the 2nd fastest SB

        • SprintRelayFan
          SprintRelayFan commented
          Editing a comment
          Not sure how accurate it is but just seen someone tweet the official time ended up being 44.40

      • #24
        I thought I would let you know that I had an email from Jason Henderson, Head of Digital at AW, saying,

        'FYI we’ve done an interview with the 1991 world 4x400m champions and they talk at length about ‘what it takes to find the next world-class British 400m runner’. It’ll be coming to AW soon on our website, YouTube and in the monthly magazine.'

        I am sure we all look forward to reading it.

        Comment


        • Sprintfan
          Sprintfan commented
          Editing a comment
          Very interesting from the fab 4. Teamwork. Cameraderie and loads of hard fast work

      • #25
        Yes, Sprintfan, the article is now up on AW, and a great read. I even teared up a little, it's been 30 years, I hope some one young lad is reading, as Rogers Black puts it '“If you want to now find the next great British 400m runner, he will be between the ages of 18 and 21 and he thinks he’s a 100m runner.”

        A little disappointed that Jason Henderson wasn't able to weave in a mention of 'Project Sub3' into the article ...


        https://athleticsweekly.com/intervie...91-1039949052/
        Last edited by carterhatch; 31-08-21, 12:09.

        Comment


        • #26
          Could last season's nadir for Team GB men's 4 x 400 be a turning point, is there a breeze fluttering through the knotweed [running gag between myself and another forum user..]

          The overnight news of Charlie Dobson running a PB in the 200 is very welcome, but both he and Ed Faulds need to prove they can stay fit and healthy to meet their potential at 400. Alex Haydock- Wilson has shown there may well be a sub-45 in him and MHS has begun with some solid 200s ...

          So, say it quietly, but there might well be a relay in there somewhere!

          [Incidentally I emailed UK Athletics about Project Sub-3 and asked that Christian Malcolm consider my suggestions ... I never heard anything back]

          Comment


          • #27
            Looking at which active British 400m runners have split sub-45 on relays we've got:
            Matt Hudson-Smith - although he is historically a total disaster in basically every relay-related scenario he has been in, he is still the most talented 400m runner we have, and also one of the most talented in British history. If I were assembling a relay squad, I would put him on leg 1 so he has minimal decisions to make and can just run fast.
            Alex Haydock-Wilson - 44.4 at the Manchester International last year, 45.70 so far this year (and an excellent 46.05 in windy Bermuda beating multiple 44.x runners). Could have a big year and be very decent on leg 2 or 3
            Cameron Chalmers - 44.79 in the Olympic Mixed Relay final, always runs with a lot of heart but I think the time where he makes a big breakthrough is past, although will likely be solid wherever you put him.
            Edward Faulds - 44.97 in the European Junior final, huge talent. If he stays fit and continues to improve looks like a born anchor with his aggression and strength.

            Other interesting names:
            Charlie Dobson - the bad: has completed 3 races longer than 100m in the last 3 years. The good? The penultimate race was a 45.51 400m and the most recent (last weekend) was a 20.19 200m. Britain hasn't had a relay runner like that since John Regis, and he split 43.93 at the 1990 Euros... Pray this man stays fit and he could break races up on leg 2.
            Joe Brier - owner of picture-perfect improvement curve (47.84 > 47.31 > 46.66 > 46.31 > 45.84 > 47.74 thus far this year) and still only 22, if he can get down to 45.3 he provides a good leg 2 or 3 option even if he has never been a real relay animal.
            Sam Reardon - my hot tip to do some silly things, 46.72i and 1:48.81i is amazing for an U20, and his leg at the World Indoors impressed me. Any 400m runner with that kind of strength will do great in the relay; one to watch.

            Of that list, I would say that in an ideal world where people develop as one wants them to, the World Championship team would look something like this:

            Heat: Hudson-Smith > Brier > Haydock-Wilson > Chalmers
            Final: Hudson-Smith > Dobson > Haydock-Wilson > Faulds

            And again, in an ideal world, I would say that Final team could be capable of running at least a 2:58 - 44.8 from MHS, 44.7 from Dobson, 44.7 from Haydock-Wilson and 44.7 from Faulds sounds very reasonable to me, and each could well be capable of quicker.
            Last edited by MysteryBrick; 19-04-22, 16:06.

            Comment


            • #28
              Originally posted by MysteryBrick View Post
              Looking at which active British 400m runners have split sub-45 on relays we've got:
              Matt Hudson-Smith - although he is historically a total disaster in basically every relay-related scenario he has been in, he is still the most talented 400m runner we have, and also one of the most talented in British history. If I were assembling a relay squad, I would put him on leg 1 so he has minimal decisions to make and can just run fast.
              Alex Haydock-Wilson - 44.4 at the Manchester International last year, 45.70 so far this year (and an excellent 46.05 in windy Bermuda beating multiple 44.x runners). Could have a big year and be very decent on leg 2 or 3
              Cameron Chalmers - 44.79 in the Olympic Mixed Relay final, always runs with a lot of heart but I think the time where he makes a big breakthrough is past, although will likely be solid wherever you put him.
              Edward Faulds - 44.97 in the European Junior final, huge talent. If he stays fit and continues to improve looks like a born anchor with his aggression and strength.

              Other interesting names:
              Charlie Dobson - the bad: has completed 3 races longer than 100m in the last 3 years. The good? The penultimate race was a 45.51 400m and the most recent (last weekend) was a 20.19 200m. Britain hasn't had a relay runner like that since John Regis, and he split 43.93 at the 1990 Euros... Pray this man stays fit and he could break races up on leg 2.
              Joe Brier - owner of picture-perfect improvement curve (47.84 > 47.31 > 46.66 > 46.31 > 45.84 > 47.74 thus far this year) and still only 22, if he can get down to 45.3 he provides a good leg 2 or 3 option even if he has never been a real relay animal.
              Sam Reardon - my hot tip to do some silly things, 46.72i and 1:48.81i is amazing for an U20, and his leg at the World Indoors impressed me. Any 400m runner with that kind of strength will do great in the relay; one to watch.

              Of that list, I would say that in an ideal world where people develop as one wants them to, the World Championship team would look something like this:

              Heat: Hudson-Smith > Brier > Haydock-Wilson > Faulds
              Final: Hudson-Smith > Dobson > Haydock-Wilson > Faulds

              And again, in an ideal world, I would say that Final team could be capable of running 2:58 - 44.8 from MHS, 44.7 from Dobson, 44.7 from Haydock-Wilson and 44.7 from Faulds.
              "Mmmm, I love the smell of relay speculation in the morning, smells like.... Athletics Weekly Forum." 😎

              A great post Mystery and I agree with pretty much all the points you raised here.

              On Sam Reardon, I consider him this year's version of Ben Pattison, someone who has great 400m speed and also has great 800m endurance, which is an invaluable combination to have in the 4x4 relay.... and if all goes well, GB could potentially have two athletes with terrific flat speed and great speed endurance, because Charlie Dobson is looking like one of the most talented athletes that these shores have produced in recent years. Having someone who can run 60m in under 6.60, 100m under 10.2, 200m under 20.2 and has a 45.5 over 400m in his locker, is a damned fine weapon to have in your arsenal when going up against the likes of the USA, Jamaica, Trinidad & Tobago, Poland and the Netherlands.

              You can add the likes of U23 Ethan Brown, former World U20 200m finalist Thomas Somers, and maybe even Jamal Rhoden-Stevens, as runners who would be very good backups to take to a championships to run in relay heats too.

              Comment


              • MysteryBrick
                MysteryBrick commented
                Editing a comment
                I was indeed considering some of those others you mention, as long as Toby Harries, but thought I would keep the list to a proper set of the 6 best plus the proper bolter. Hopefully there will be some nice surprises from other corners too!

              • MysteryBrick
                MysteryBrick commented
                Editing a comment
                Although having just written that, I see that Ethan Brown split 45.2 at the weekend, so maybe he *should* be added, as that is quicker than Joe Brier has ever split!

              • jjimbojames
                jjimbojames commented
                Editing a comment
                I agree with MHS being lead-off; we need to be in the mix early on, especially when the others mentioned are better at upping their game in relays. Same for the females - we can’t have a repeat of HW at the WIC

            • #29
              If the world championships relay final was tomorrow I’d say Haydock-Wilson is a lock on 2nd leg, that burst of speed he showed through the first 100 in Belgrade is exactly what you need at the break. Dwayne Cowan was a fairly imposing guy and as a tactic, putting someone with broad shoulders on 2nd has served us well over recent years. AHW is of a similar build. Where MHS slots in is more difficult, there are advantages to putting him on first leg and he has done it in the past, I suspect he will want to run the anchor leg as the senior guy, his leg at the 2014 commonwealths was as good as any leg run by Rooney over the years. He came unstuck on anchor leg in Amsterdam in 2016 when given the baton in the lead which wouldn’t happen at the WCs. Which would leave you with Faulds on lead-off.

              I share the enthusiasm about Dobsons potential, but I’d like to see him get through a season unscathed before committing to the relay. Chalmers gets the 3rd leg at present IMO

              Comment


              • MysteryBrick
                MysteryBrick commented
                Editing a comment
                All very reasonable comments that I broadly agree with - if one were picking a relay for tomorrow then AHW on 2 and Chalmers in there definitely makes sense.

            • #30
              I do hope that the overnight news of the mercurial MHS running a 44.61 is a sign that he has found a place where his talent can flourish. Added to this that Chalrie Dobson continues to run promising 200s, and can stay fit and is keen to be involved in 4x 400 - dare we dream that its not just project Sub-3, but with one or two others starting the outdoor season well, we can up the ante to project Sub 2.58. ..

              Comment

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