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'Project sub 3' - A proposal for men's 4 x400 relay

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  • #16
    Some ideas for Project Sub 3. some have already been mentioned already so I am not taking credit here, just bringing them together.
    1. BMC style events aimed at getting as many athletes as possible under 45 - incentives and overall prize money at the final event - 4 events a year.
    2. Get 4x400m recognised a bit more at club level. National relay champs with area qualification required.
    3. More international 4x400 added whereever possible to existing fixtures.
    4. Cash incentive to go sub 45 and sub 44.
    5. Training camps to share ideas, bond, boost morale.

    Also most of these ideas could equally apply to womens 400m and 4x400m running..

    Comment


    • carterhatch
      carterhatch commented
      Editing a comment
      All good ideas... but what social media platform !!! I think most have a tiwtter account, but I don't - neither intend to- and I dont know if you can just make an unsolicited approach... OH FFS, I went to edit the original long list post and now it needs approving again!
      Last edited by carterhatch; 15-08-21, 12:03.

  • #17
    These things often are cyclical, and maybe it was the success of Ohuruogu, Sanders, or winning relay medals that inspired them, but it would be interesting to see what was the impetus for the women’s improvements, whilst the men have regressed from recent times, when we had Rooney, Bingham etc. Maybe now the 400m looks to be an easier route to a Champs compared to the 200m/800m, we’ll see a natural drift towards it again.

    Interesting tweet from Kris Akabussi about AHW being a potential 400H - he seems to have only tried it for a couple of races as an U17, but with some technical work, could be our next sub-49 guy

    Comment


    • carterhatch
      carterhatch commented
      Editing a comment
      Good to know Mr. Akabussi is still involved, I will copy him into the initial approach - he was specifically noted in my initial thoughts.

      For another day maybe, but the cycilical nature of some events is exacerbated by lack of succession planning. You have Mo Farah, it might inspire others, but if it doesn't, the suits at UKA can simply milk the glory, when he leaves stage right, there is a vacuum. Having Rooney,Yousuf, available didn't give a sense of urgency, probably didnt inspire in the same way either, and voila, the one prodigal talent flouders, and you have the perfect conditions for a gap in talent ... the same can be said for Triple Jump but I wont go on...
      Last edited by carterhatch; 17-08-21, 11:59.

    • RunUnlimited
      RunUnlimited commented
      Editing a comment
      @caterhatch

      Let me expand on your triple jump point then... It must be noted that by the Sydney Olympics in 2000, not only did Great Britain have the still world record holder (and soon to be Olympic champion) Edwards competing, but also had not one, but two other world class triple jump exponents (Philips Idowu, Larry Achike). We had a three pronged attack of athletes who competed and won either Olympic, World, Commonwealth and European (Edwards), World and European (Idowu) and Commonwealth (Achike) titles their career.
      Then, when Idowu was becoming one of the world's best triple jumpers, while Edwards had retired and Achike struggled with a host of injuries, along comes another 17 meter dude in Nathan Douglas, bursting onto the scene in the mid 2000's. But since Idowu's exit from athletics in 2014, the retirement of Achike in 2013 and with Douglas never realising the potential shown by his 17.64 m outburst in 2005, there has been a dearth of talented triple jumpers in Great Britain. Indeed, until Ben Williams jumped 17.27 in 2019, no British TJ had gone over 17 meters Idowu did so in 2012.

      There are some glimmers of hope though, with Daniel Falode's performances in Tallinn indicating that the 19 year old has the potential for much more in the future.

    • carterhatch
      carterhatch commented
      Editing a comment
      Thanks for filling out the detail RunUnlimited. I wasn't much of a physics student but it takes a lot less effort to keep a moving object, moving, than to get something started from standstill. Same can be said for athletic's talent, a great deal of momentum is generated when you have three world class competitors in an event, and surely its incumbent upon the governing body to make the most of this with effective 'succession planning', and not just sit back and hope the next generation are suitably inspired, that's a not a plan. When those world class competitors retire, their achievements only statistics, the woeful 'succession plan' in tatters, it takes an awful lot of effort to get started again... Men's 400, triple jump, javelin, the pattern is there for all to see ...

  • #18
    Originally posted by Ursus View Post

    Whisper it quietly but I do actually quite enjoy a relay. But where I differ from the rest of the world is that I consider them to be a bit of fun at the end of the program rather than an integral part of it.

    Having uttered that sacrilegious thought. I will now step out the back of the circle and leave this thread to those who know what they’re talking about.
    Another post that sums up my feelings.

    Comment


    • #19
      I will be suggesting to UK Athletics that some of this extra funding be used for 'Project Sub3' and a Talent Identification initiative 'Jump to Success' (encouraging gymnasts to try triple jump)

      https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/58222726

      Now if only AW would approve my posting [#16] for the 'long list' of potential athletes (admitedly for the second time) then I can make some progress.

      Comment


      • #20
        Gymnasts should try pv - they are usually small so the other jumps would put them at a disadvantage. Maybe we should be getting rugby types from the academies into throwing so if they do not make it as a player they can throw- Lawrence came from rugby as a thrower at school. The USA has an abundance of shot putters as they are linemen from football who do track in the summer so they are big men with the skill sets.

        Comment


        • carterhatch
          carterhatch commented
          Editing a comment
          You must be a mind reader, sportsfan! I have mentioned both ideas (current gymnasts to PV, rugby players to throws) repeatedly when the topic of talent ID is brought up... for triple jump I propose encouraging 'former' gymnasts, with that background in mastering complex moves, but have perhaps 'outgrown' the sport, physically and metaphorically.

      • #21
        Well, the rush to offer comments on my 'long list' has been .... under-whelming. Perhaps because my original post fell foul of the approval system (twice) and I guess people are taking a break from athletics post-Olympics or have decided, like two posters, what's the point.

        i did email
        Jason Henderson, Head of Digital at AW, (Why? to get post approval but also to broach the idea that AW get behind the project with a feature) but he is on leave.

        Interestingly he tweeted back on the 6th August


        'Robbie Brightwell anchored the GB 4x400m team to silver behind USA at Tokyo in 1964 in 3:01.6 on a cinder track. 57 years later the GB quartet is almost 2sec slower with 3:03.29. Not exactly British athletics' healthiest event right now.'


        Much like the Jack Nicholson character in 'One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest' said, 'Goddam it, at least I tried... '

        Comment


        • MysteryBrick
          MysteryBrick commented
          Editing a comment
          I don't think it's anything personal against you. My view is that the best way to have a good 4x400m is to have good 400m runners - this year has been a bit of a nadir at the top level but there are some more positive signs at U20 and U23 level, so we just have to see what happens. Some more localised funding targeted at talented younger 400m/200m/400mh runners would probably be a positive step, but beyond that im not sure of useful specifics.

      • #22
        Thanks Jogger, MysteryBrick... worth noting that Ben Pattison, mentioned on the longlist, ran a 800 PB in 1:45.7, still only 19 too. (courtesy of Ian Hodge Twitter 15/8) .

        Comment


        • jjimbojames
          jjimbojames commented
          Editing a comment
          Ben used to run the 400m - he won the ESSA title a couple of years ago, so has good speed down there

        • trickstat
          trickstat commented
          Editing a comment
          Yes 47.11 at 16. I am pretty confident he would be sub 46 with a flying start right now.

        • MysteryBrick
          MysteryBrick commented
          Editing a comment
          My general rule of thumb is that a male 800m runner has to be exceptional to work in an international 4x400m, and definitely be a clear 4/800m runner. Tony van Diepen was a notable example at the Olympics, but given he got silver at the 2021 European Indoors over 400m he could definitely be described as a specialist over 400m!

          Of the current British runners sub-1:46 Pattison and Burgin would be the two I would think could really do a job in a relay. Pattison ran 21.70 over 200m as an U17, so he has the speed! And Burgin... if he can get and remain fit (which being with Trevor Painter should surely improve) I shudder to think what he could run in a relay.

      • #23
        Having won a 200m earlier at the Manchester International, Alex Haydock-Wilson ran an unofficial 44.7 anchor leg split in a relay... Impressive day.
        Last edited by carterhatch; 18-08-21, 20:11.

        Comment


        • MysteryBrick
          MysteryBrick commented
          Editing a comment
          I think they had him marked down as a leg 1 historically, but this bodes well for a future on anchor.

        • treadwater1
          treadwater1 commented
          Editing a comment
          He will have been running with fire is his belly, that DQ at the British Champs cost him a place at the Olympics when he went into that weekend with the 2nd fastest SB

        • SprintRelayFan
          SprintRelayFan commented
          Editing a comment
          Not sure how accurate it is but just seen someone tweet the official time ended up being 44.40

      • #24
        I thought I would let you know that I had an email from Jason Henderson, Head of Digital at AW, saying,

        'FYI we’ve done an interview with the 1991 world 4x400m champions and they talk at length about ‘what it takes to find the next world-class British 400m runner’. It’ll be coming to AW soon on our website, YouTube and in the monthly magazine.'

        I am sure we all look forward to reading it.

        Comment


        • Sprintfan
          Sprintfan commented
          Editing a comment
          Very interesting from the fab 4. Teamwork. Cameraderie and loads of hard fast work

      • #25
        Yes, Sprintfan, the article is now up on AW, and a great read. I even teared up a little, it's been 30 years, I hope some one young lad is reading, as Rogers Black puts it '“If you want to now find the next great British 400m runner, he will be between the ages of 18 and 21 and he thinks he’s a 100m runner.”

        A little disappointed that Jason Henderson wasn't able to weave in a mention of 'Project Sub3' into the article ...


        https://athleticsweekly.com/intervie...91-1039949052/
        Last edited by carterhatch; 31-08-21, 12:09.

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