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Occasional Hope · 08-08-21, 23:38

Without considering the minimum performances given in the document above, I would amend that list as folllows:

Olympic Podium (16)
Dina Asher-Smith - keep
Tom Bosworth - ?
Holly Bradshaw - keep
Mo Farah - drop
Adam Gemili – keep, but poss down to relay
Callum Hawkins - ?
Sophie Hitchon – retired, so obviously drop
Zharnel Hughes - keep
Abigail Irozuru - keep
Katarina Johnson-Thompson - keep
Nick Miller - keep
Laura Muir - keep
Reece Prescod – keep but on a last chance, poss move down to potential
Lynsey Sharp – drop if we can, I understand maternity allows for an enforced extension but really can’t see her getting back to compete at national level now
Lorraine Ugen - ? Has jumped over 6.90 this year, but was awful when it counted.
Jake Wightman – keep

Olympic Podium Potential (29)
Andrew Butchart – keep? With warning for stupidity
Taylor Campbell - keep
Melissa Courtney - keep
Tim Duckworth – keep
Niamh Emerson - keep
Tom Gale - keep
Elliot Giles - keep
Neil Gourley - drop
Charlie Da’Vall Grice - keep
Dewi Griffiths - drop
Josh Kerr - move up to podium
Morgan Lake – keep but perhaps on last chance saloon
Kyle Langford – drop?
Chris McAlister – keep?
Eilish McColgan - keep
Sarah McDonald – drop?
Sophie McKinna - keep
Naomi Ogbeta - keep
Shelayna Oskan-Clarke - drop
Andrew Pozzi - keep
Aimee Pratt - keep?
Charlotte Purdue – really not sure, keep?
Jemma Reekie – move up to podium
Daniel Rowden - keep
Jazmin Sawyers - keep
Steph Twell – drop
Jamie Webb - keep
Laura Weightman - keep
Callum Wilkinson - keep?
Ben Williams – drop

Olympic Relays (23)
Amy Allcock - drop
Kristal Awuah - keep
Cameron Chalmers - keep
Zoey Clark - keep
Emily Diamond - keep
Beth Dobbin - keep
Eilidh Doyle – retired so drop
Miguel Francis - drop
Matthew Hudson-Smith – maybe drop? Keep only if closer order is taken of his coaching arrangements
Richard Kilty - keep
Imani-Lara Lansiquot - keep
Nethaneel Mitchell-Blake - keep
Daryll Neita – keep, move to individual potential
Ashleigh Nelson – drop?
Laviai Nielsen – keep
Asha Philip - keep
Martyn Rooney - DROP
Danny Talbot - drop
Jessica Turner - keep
CJ Ujah – keep, maybe move to individual potential
Jodie Williams – move to individual potential
Bianca Williams - drop
Rabah Yousif - DROP

Not currently funded but add:

Keely Hodgkinson, podium

Oliver Dustin, potential
Alex Bell, potential
Lizzie Bird, potential
Jake Heyward, potential
Holly Mills, potential
Nicole Yeargin, relay (potential status not allowed for 100-400m runners)
Emily Borthwick, potential
Max Burgin, potential
Harry Coppell, potential
Lawrence Okoye, potential
Jessie Knight, potential/relay
Hannah Williams, relay
Lina Nielsen, poss relay?

Ladyloz · 09-08-21, 00:47

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Occasional Hope Sprinters cannot be on potential if the relays are funded. Only podium or relay.

If I was in charge though my 1st thing would be to defund the Men's 4x4. Seems an easy decision. Unlike 4x1 baton changing is less important in comparison to foot speed and funding a bunch of 46 seconds runners isn't value for money. Message = we'll come back to the table when a few of you are running close to 45 seconds at least. Maybe 1 or 2 individuals like Charlie Dobson can then go on potential funding and like of Ed Faulds will surely be on futures funding.

They do take injuries into account so am sure Gemili and Hawkins will be retained given their previous performances on global stage also.

Obviously no Hitchon or Farah and almost certainly no Ugen either. I'd move Prescod to relay funding = keeps him involved and a clever way of getting him to commit to relay practice and comps. If he doesn't wish to do this then tough. I'll leave those who follow walks to discuss merits of Bosworth.

I'd move Hodgkinson, Kerr, Reekie and Jodie Williams up to Podium.

Can't be bothered to go through the whole relay and Potential lists but a quick glance suggests a handful can be dropped from relay (in addition to men's 4x4) and about 8-10 from potential which should free up some spaces for others to be added.

carterhatch · 09-08-21, 09:56

a couple of thoughts ...

the current list has a total of 68 athletes, my point being it is very much finite, and something like Occasional Hopes additions, a perfectly reasonable list, would suggest that a dozen or so athletes will be removed. Retirement accounts for a small handful but there will be a few difficult conversations.

Given such a revised list for next years very busy season, there is a lot of talent there, and wouldn't it be great if this was converted into medals, but I would urge one or interventions.

Prescod is just not reliable enough to be involved in the relay squad, and giving him such funding would be a distraction. If he is to have one more year's 'potential' funding, Malcom, if anyone, must understand the challanges of realising sprint potential, and thus should take him under his direct control, set a very robust plan for next year, and nurture what is, without doubt, a precocious talent.

Morgan Lake, if she is to receive funding, I urge that there is a proviso of a winter's training as if she were planning for multi events, with maybe a indoor season pentathlon to aim for, something different to revitilise her, as in my humble opinion, she never looks as if she is enjoying herself, and shouldnt that be a priority.

NMB - will probably have sleepless nights, bless him, but I do wonder if he has just reached his maximum in sprints, and that heis in fact a 400 runner. Po10 suggests he did one run a few years back, with 46 and bits. Those more knowledgeable on this forum have argued that to bea great 400 runner, you need a very good 200 ... just saying.

MHS - probably the epitome of a mercurial talent, that might never fully realise his potential. Malcolm again must take a direct lead with this young man and create a plan for the next 12 months, with close support, even bringing in Martyn Rooney as a day to day mentor (mhs seemed to respond very well to him) .

Max Burgin - young and injury prone, something is not quite right. What did they used to call Darren Anderton 'sick note', a label that is probably unacceptable in these more enlightened times, but, again, if on uK Athletics funding, it should come with a caveat for next year... no matter how fast he runs, he does not go to Worlds ... he does Commonwealths and/or age groups, no fast tracking with the pressure that comes with it. Let him work his way slowly to his potential, as we have enough strength in depth to not rush him.

Amy Hunt - I hope I am wrong, but I have watched athletics for long enough to know that some athletes peak young, and never achieve the potential we forum users want. It may be that the rigours of study, at such an illustrious university, has its own demands that to balance academia and world class athletics takes adjustments (not going to somewhere like Loughborough, suggests t ome a young women with great ambition beyond 200m). It can be done, I can’t imagine Laura Muir had much spare time, and to her I would turn to offer mentoring over the coming months. It might well be that Ms. Hunt only returns to world class times as an alumnus, or, this was as good as it gets.

The Neilsen twins have not had the best of years. Though why Laviai was not involved in the final of the 4x400 has yet to be explained to me. For Lina events did not go in her favour but in hindsight taking Beasley was no more than a last hurrah (though I have a great deal of time for the latter and her service to our sport, and someone who passes my Sawyers’ Maximisation Test). But we have seen how the USA pair are dominant in hurdles, and why, good technique sure, but blistering flat speed. Lina needs to continue to improve her technique, of course, but as part of relay funding, needs to keep improving her flat times. Laviai needs to make herself indispensible on leg 1 of the 4x400, our medal chance was lost there, providing, a dependable 50.mid, then no matter the vicissitudes of 400 flat with our depth, her name is always among the first for relay.

McColgan – a gifted runner, a marvellous national record this year, but no doubling-up in the Worlds next year, no matter how tempting on paper, and a binding clause in her funding contract to reinforce this.

carterhatch · 09-08-21, 10:47

and a part 2 ...

Here is an idea – target 4x 800 at the world relays in 2023, (dropping the 4x400 men will free up funds), with the current depth in both men and women, this will throw a funding lifeline to one or two just outside podium/potential, and reward an event that has reached very exciting heights.

Where was Sarah Macdonald – was there an injury holding her back? I think it highly unfair if so that she gets dropped as her potential was clear for all to see. Things are getting very congested at 800/1500 with the talent we have (I suspect Reekie might look to the 1500), but with sensible planning there is enough competitions next year to keep most engaged. Don’t make the Worlds? Then give the likes of Macdonald a chance at Europeans – isn’t there 4 per nation?

Andrew Pozzi – Last time I mentioned him I got told, ‘Yes, but he is world indoor champion’ for which I salute him. However, he is not getting any younger and when was the last time he tried a flat 60/100 in competition? A long time ago... My point is, working on hurdle technique alone isn’t going to get him to very low 13, which he will need to medal. Maybe working on his flat speed with a couple of races might be the difference.

Men’s 4 x400 – special measures – I don’t know what the answer is here, but whatever we are currently doing is not working. No point in keeping Cameron Chalmers on ‘relay’ funding if, we don’t have anyone else. So a ring fenced group, of the young emerging cohort, brought together regularly for exchanging of best practice with leading coaches, mentoring from our former 400 ‘heros’ (an afternoon with Akabusi would make anyone feel positive), and warm weather training for ‘Project Sub 3’. Not full funding, but reward for milestones achieved.

There were only 2 medals won at Tokyo by the 16 Olympic Podium athletes. I hesitate to say a poor return without a barrage of ‘yes, but...’. Some had won medals previously, I grant you, but it shows how inexact this business is. 5 years ago, no one would have named Hodgkinson as a medal winner in Tokyo. This time the cycle is only 3 years, but I would bet that at least one female athlete will emerge from obscurity in that time, to be debated heatedly on this forum, and at least a handful of those on the next funding list won’t even get close to the plane to Paris.

Ursus · 09-08-21, 10:57

I wouldn’t waste money on Okoye. He’s probably earned a shed load from his American football efforts, poor as they were, about to turn 30 and will clearly never fulfil his potential.

Didn’t McKinna turn down funding?

We can have the annual debate about the purpose of funding and I’ll just get cross about relays. But it’s a poor system that doesn’t give encouragement to the likes of Scott Lincoln. He’ll never stand on the podium (and nor will the large majority of names listed), but he’s consistently improving and in 3 years time he could well be a finalist and be in British record territory.

I’m all ears to hear how the likes of McAlister or Duckworth are more deserving.

MysteryBrick · 09-08-21, 11:22

If I were in charge I would have a series of tiers of funding that were lower than the current ones (and still means tested), but with the proviso that they were able to stretch to cover more people and *everyone* on funding had access to medical services, physio, biomechanical analysis etc. with the aim of trying to ensure athletes were all well-conditioned and fit when it mattered.

Loop-guru · 09-08-21, 12:52

I feel that the issue of who gets what needs to be looked at. A far deeper pool of athletes should be funded to avoid the Alex Bell scenario and get away from a two tier system of the haves and have-nots. Money needs to be freed up to allow this to happern. Currently we get £23 million. 100 athletes at £15K is £1.5 million x 4 years for an average cycle that's £6 million. I make that £17 million going elsewhere. Will there be some scandal somewhere down the line with officials lining their pockets or is the rest of the money being utilised in other ways. Also an extra Cache of funds needs to be set aside to fund athletes who emerge during the cycle. I also would prefer it if once you have achieved a certain standard - say olympic finalist you automatically qualify for funding rather than have to depend on someones opinion ( for example you are to old). I think Alex Bell is at the sharp end of this sort of thinking as she has stated that in her opinion she will never get funding whilst certain people remain in charge.

Also a stronger stance needs to be taken so that athletes like KJT and Adam only go when they are 100% fit. Yes they will be distressed to miss out but better for them in the long run. No idea if this is acheivable in practice but it always struck me that it was a big ask to go from a 6.10 long jump in a small local event to challenge for a global medal. Another opinion for which I got stick for on here (Called Crazy in fact by someone who eludes me, msterybrick perhaps?) in the lead up to the comps.

Also athletes should be prepared to compete more eg European Cup duties rather than just do the trials as a last ditch way of proving fitness. 3 to 4 commitments for each athlete throughout the season would avoid the Prescod fiasco.

Ursus · 09-08-21, 13:09

Off the top of my head, but I’ll throw it out there. Have we got funding the wrong way round?

Rather than funding individual athletes how about rewarding performances instead? Open to anyone.

First time someone beats a landmark in an event e.g 75m, 80m or 85m in the spear, triggers a payment. So do PBs or performances over a certain (high) standard. A global qualifying mark, finishing top of the national rankings and high finishes in national / international champs could also all trigger payments. Most would be fairly low level, but the incentive of a few hundred quid here and there might just help persuade some good, otherwise unfunded, athletes to stick with it.

The top people will still do fine and they’ll have shoe contracts, appearance fees and endorsements etc too. But this approach might help incentivise others, particularly in some of the minority events.

This could be supported by a central medical fund that would be accessible to a defined number of athletes.

carterhatch · 09-08-21, 14:06

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Ursus

Exactly - performance based incentives ... something I have been advocating since the dawn of lottery funding.. At each age group, a certain milestone that triggers a reward, an age group best, a home nations record, qualify for a european junior final, achieve a world record for a statistic rich sport we are not short of potential targets. The catchment group woud be far wider.

Stew-Coach · 09-08-21, 14:34

The problem to some degree with any performance based element, is the no. of achievers cant be foreseen, one year for instance you may get one athlete, the following 10 per "marker" and so the requirements to fund cant be limited.

We obviously/apparently spend a lot of money on "admin" in the sport and facilities (I mean just being based at Loughborough costs nearly 400k etc), if we only have a set pot, performance based even though I probably agree with it and would drive our depth a lot, does have other limitations it brings.

jjimbojames · 09-08-21, 14:41

CH - Laviai wasn’t on the final team because she was the slowest leg that ran across the heats and the heats/final of the mixed - Zoey Clarke was the next best to call in. As it turned out, Pipi had a poor first leg, but Laviai on paper would have been slower than Pipi’s open runs - at best a 51.6-7, vs Pipi’s races of 51.1 and 51.3 - so I can see why that played out. Would love a 50.5 lead off, but she’ll need to get her PB down below that first!

There is an argument to fund relays, not relay runners. Pay for camps, access to treatments etc, but not the salary part, but invite lots along. Relays are most athletes best medal chance, so they will have a very real incentive to get on the team, as the medal brings sponsorship. Look at our M4x4 - whether world relays, Euro indoors or OG, the guys selected were largely self-funded. That would free up a lot to spend on other events.

The £23m budget will cover lots of things like the access to treatment - most athletes say the salary part isn’t the big thing for them, it’s the access to physio quickly and free of charge. In which case, widen the pool of people that can use that. Put money into prize money pots for winning national titles or eg BMC races/leagues. The top top people won’t bother any more than now because they are already priced out of the means-tested funding, but it will help with the second-tier of athletes being keen to push on.

I do think funded athletes should compete more for the team in lower level comps - but the balance with their training to ensure they peak at the majors is tight. If the medals don’t come, the funding will be cut again!

philipo · 09-08-21, 15:05

Originally posted by Occasional Hope View Post

Without considering the minimum performances given in the document above, I would amend that list as folllows:

Olympic Podium (16)
Dina Asher-Smith - keep
Tom Bosworth - ?
Holly Bradshaw - keep
Mo Farah - drop
Adam Gemili – keep, but poss down to relay
Callum Hawkins - ?
Sophie Hitchon – retired, so obviously drop
Zharnel Hughes - keep
Abigail Irozuru - keep
Katarina Johnson-Thompson - keep
Nick Miller - keep
Laura Muir - keep
Reece Prescod – keep but on a last chance, poss move down to potential
Lynsey Sharp – drop if we can, I understand maternity allows for an enforced extension but really can’t see her getting back to compete at national level now
Lorraine Ugen - ? Has jumped over 6.90 this year, but was awful when it counted.
Jake Wightman – keep

Olympic Podium Potential (29)
Andrew Butchart – keep? With warning for stupidity
Taylor Campbell - keep
Melissa Courtney - keep
Tim Duckworth – keep
Niamh Emerson - keep
Tom Gale - keep
Elliot Giles - keep
Neil Gourley - drop
Charlie Da’Vall Grice - keep
Dewi Griffiths - drop
Josh Kerr - move up to podium
Morgan Lake – keep but perhaps on last chance saloon
Kyle Langford – drop?
Chris McAlister – keep?
Eilish McColgan - keep
Sarah McDonald – drop?
Sophie McKinna - keep
Naomi Ogbeta - keep
Shelayna Oskan-Clarke - drop
Andrew Pozzi - keep
Aimee Pratt - keep?
Charlotte Purdue – really not sure, keep?
Jemma Reekie – move up to podium
Daniel Rowden - keep
Jazmin Sawyers - keep
Steph Twell – drop
Jamie Webb - keep
Laura Weightman - keep
Callum Wilkinson - keep?
Ben Williams – drop

Olympic Relays (23)
Amy Allcock - drop
Kristal Awuah - keep
Cameron Chalmers - keep
Zoey Clark - keep
Emily Diamond - keep
Beth Dobbin - keep
Eilidh Doyle – retired so drop
Miguel Francis - drop
Matthew Hudson-Smith – maybe drop? Keep only if closer order is taken of his coaching arrangements
Richard Kilty - keep
Imani-Lara Lansiquot - keep
Nethaneel Mitchell-Blake - keep
Daryll Neita – keep, move to individual potential
Ashleigh Nelson – drop?
Laviai Nielsen – keep
Asha Philip - keep
Martyn Rooney - DROP
Danny Talbot - drop
Jessica Turner - keep
CJ Ujah – keep, maybe move to individual potential
Jodie Williams – move to individual potential
Bianca Williams - drop
Rabah Yousif - DROP

Not currently funded but add:

Keely Hodgkinson, podium

Oliver Dustin, potential
Alex Bell, potential
Lizzie Bird, potential
Jake Heyward, potential
Holly Mills, potential
Nicole Yeargin, relay (potential status not allowed for 100-400m runners)
Emily Borthwick, potential
Max Burgin, potential
Harry Coppell, potential
Lawrence Okoye, potential
Jessie Knight, potential/relay
Hannah Williams, relay
Lina Nielsen, poss relay?

Crikey I agree almost wholly with your views.8

philipo · 09-08-21, 15:10

I would rather see Jodie on potential podium than the so called talented juvenile Prescod. Maybe they give him a few lessons in starting.
Mystery, you were shouting about his abilities and how clever the selectors were to take him Tokyo.
Yeah so on the ball!!

Occasional Hope · 09-08-21, 19:01

Carterhatch suggests a number of interventions. These don't necessarily have to be tied to funding, but it does provide a useful carrot/stick to encourage essential change.

Reece Prescod - yes, definitely needs Christian Malcolm to take him under his wing and sort out a proper, rigorous training programme, and possibly some sports psychologist input to help his self-control (fals starts, nutrition, etc). However, if he goes down from podium funding that has to be to relay bc potential is not an option for sprinters.

Morgan Lake: I don't know if a return to multis is the best option, but clearly something is not working as she seems to have regressed.

NMB - I like the idea of encouraging him towards 400.

MHS - needs even closer support than Prescod. He definitely needs to come back from the US.

Max Burgin - encouraging that he's apparently moved to Trevor Painter as coach. TP has done a fabulous job bringing Keely forward.

Amy Hunt - she's in the wait and see category for me.

Eilish McColgan – I don't think it needs a contract to ban doubling - that's a selection issue rather than a funding one. And UKA has no power over how many events she does at the Commonwealths.

4x4 warm weather training - it's difficult to do stuff like that if people aren't full time athletes.

Only 3 per nation at Euros, but the many comps available next year should allow more people a chance in our more competitive events. We could send 4 women for the 200m at the WCs if we had four with the standard though, as Dina will have a wild card.

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