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UK Relays - State of Play

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  • RunUnlimited
    replied
    More of my very late reactions to events in Munich.

    The winning time by GB's men in the 4x100m relay, would have medalled at *every* World Championships since the turn of the century, with only Doha 2019 being the exception. 2019 was possibly one of the deepest 4x100s in history, with the top five nations going under 38 seconds and the top 3 breaking 37.5.

    Indeed, the 37.67CR they ran would have won world gold from 2001, all the way up 'til 2007, before the emergence of Bolt on the scene in 2008.

    Be in no doubt that this was a seriously swift outing from the boys, and all achieved with two entirely new faces brought into the squad and no Prescod included, either.
    Last edited by RunUnlimited; 27-08-22, 14:19.

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  • trickstat
    commented on 's reply
    Looking at Power of 10, I don't think the move up to 400 was the problem, partly because she hasn't yet competed in an age-group where 400 is the championship distance and she ran a very decent 57 something indoor 400 in 2020 when she was still 14. She also had run quite a few 800s and cross-country races.

  • Stew-Coach
    replied
    Just for quick reference and to add some flavour in regards to 400 potential

    You can judge a 400 programme fairly well on their 200 conversion (in season 200 primarily of course, but in essence a PB could be used to identify scope)
    Male 200x2.14-2.17 Female 200x2.17.2.2 is a reasonable barometer. So when we see "fast" athletes run a 400, you can generally see if this is purely down to speed reserve and talent or actual programming for the event

    Training for 400 is not just about volume but the specificity of that volume, and that doesn't just mean at speed but the contact of tempo/aerobic type work being appropriate

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  • Occasional Hope
    commented on 's reply
    He ran 10.29 and 20.38 respectively.

  • Occasional Hope
    commented on 's reply
    Obviously switching doesn't work for everyone. But it's often worth a try just to see how it goes.

  • MysteryBrick
    commented on 's reply
    Oh yes, it's not easy absolutely. But mental strength and ability to handle the load is not something that is measurable before trying, whereas absolute speed and physical characteristics are, hence what this debate is focused on.

    If Power of 10 also included a 'hard bastard' measurement, with a score for each athlete, of course that should also feature!

  • justrunfast
    replied
    And yes I know some will say are athletes should just do xyz, but there is a reason only 17 men and 6 women in the history of athletics in this country have ran 44 and 49

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  • justrunfast
    replied
    The one key point people are regarding athletes switching events. Lets be clear 400 training is an absolute different ball game and mentally is just as hard. It is not about just making the switch to the event it is being prepared to have lactic 2-3x a week compared to maybe moderate lactic session for a sprinter.

    The reason lots have failed is because it takes a different level of commitment.

    It is literally saying I want you to run close to your 200m PB and keep going... on a weekly basis... people say they are ready for that but 99% aren't and it shows in the results.

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  • justrunfast
    replied
    Originally posted by Loop-guru View Post
    Just as an aside I think Joe Ferguson has huge potential for us in the 400M and I wonder if he has any plans in that area. He is racing tonight in Poland in the 100m and 200m against some high class athletes.
    I agree! Especially as he has very good engine

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  • Loop-guru
    replied
    Just as an aside I think Joe Ferguson has huge potential for us in the 400M and I wonder if he has any plans in that area. He is racing tonight in Poland in the 100m and 200m against some high class athletes.

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  • Loop-guru
    replied
    This is an interesting debate. The example I always give is that of Kriss Akabusi. A fairly good 400M runner into his mid twenties winning the Army title every year, At this point in his life he would be ranked between 60 - 100 of todays crop. Switches to Roger Black's training group and after one winter of proper serious training wins an international vest and goes onto have a stellar career and becomes a crucial part of our 4x400M set-up. The law of averages dictates that out of say 100 200M runners and 100 400M runners there are a few that fall into this bracket. It's really about the athlete making that commitment and finding a training group where they can really improve. Another example is Nicole Yeargin. I believe she will one day run sub 50 and maximise her potential as she has put herself in one of the best training groups in the world. However I also do get that the switch up from 200M to 400M does not always work. Toby Harries, Ben Snaith and Thomas Somers have all had a bash at the 400M in recent years but up to this point have all tended to be around the 46.5 mark

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  • justrunfast
    replied
    That is my point... we have good quarter milers. Not elite. MHS switch was done when he was 20. the year after he ran 20.8 as a junior. More often a junior who runs those times would be kept as a 200m runner because that is seen as world class potential. It could be but coaches need to understand the profile of their athlete and take a risk and commit to running the 400.

    I agree it takes a 20.0 200m athlete to have potentially run an elite 400 for men but like I said it is up to coaches to commit. We have had one 44 second runner in the last seven years. That is just no long term planning being done, especially as the event as a whole is moving on. 44 second 400m runners and 49 second women do not happen by chance.

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  • MysteryBrick
    commented on 's reply
    As a 400m runner of reasonable national quality, I do have a pretty good idea of what makes a good quarter-miler. Yes, tall and long stride length is not just enough, but tall, good speed endurance, enough 200m speed are pretty good barometers. Thus, identifying 200m runners who are better over 200m than 100m and unlikely to make a big leap to top class 200m is a pretty decent guideline.

    The problem recently has been that none of our top 400m guys were quick enough over 200m - Chalmers, Lee Thompson, all 21.3 guys at best. Compare that to MHS (started as a 200m runner), Charlie Dobson (20.2) and the like, along with historically Roger Black (20.5), Mark Richardson (20.6) and there's the difference. Just like our 800m guys have now learned that you need a rapid 400m to be successful, the 400m is also starting to realise that you can be as strong as you like but if 21.5 is your peak you're severely limited.

  • justrunfast
    replied
    You guys want everyone to run 400 lol... as if it is that simple. Tall and long stride length doesn't just equal potentially good 400 running.

    There's a reason why we have a whole bunch of men and women in the UK stuck around 45-46 and 51-52. Not enough long term development is done in this country to make absolute elite quarter milers. I don't blame the athletes I blame the coaches. Nearly every 400m athlete we have has fallen into it by chance... that is not how you get low 49 women and low 44 men. Look on the power of 10 all time list. All the athletes have the same profiles and similarities apart from one or two differences.


    When there is a commitment to developing quarter milers the relay will sort out itself. Instead of living on a hope and pray that athletes switch up their whole training and commit to a whole new event on the chance they can run a good relay leg.

    Two examples Jodie Williams and Keely Hodgkinson. These are types of profiles that need to be recognised EARLY which could lead to elite 400m running. Just takes someone with a bit of balls to say you will make an exceptional 400m running lets commit to this on a four year cycle and be ready for the next olympics.

    Getting athletes who haven't had joy in one and event and switch through chance is so so hit and miss.

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  • Occasional Hope
    commented on 's reply
    Maybe she just struggled with the move up from 300 to 400?
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