UK Relays - State of Play

[jjimbojames]

Jodie said in an interview that whilst she loves the 200m, she knows the 400m is her event now. She ran 49.mid on the relay as a relative novice, so she may well get down to 49.0 or even into the 48s with a good winter.

Vicky - on paper older, but in reality she’s not been training hard for many of those years, so I expect her to have another cycle in her.

Amy - she’s the obvious choice for the 4x400m - 22.4 speed, long legs, great 300m time…and hungry, after her setbacks. I’d also like to see someone like Desiree Henry commit to the 400m for a season…and maybe KJT?

[carterhatch]

Yes, jjimbojames, I saw that interview wih Jodie, and quite right, a good winter block of training, and certainly, if injury and illness free, will make Paris. I did suggest 2/3 years ago that a KJT leg of an England 4x400 would have been fun to see, but I think, sadly, that chance has gone. Henry, interesting, had she been fit these past couple of years, it may have been a natural progression but again, sadly, just to see her run healthy a 100 will be a plus. There is though, I am sure, much more to unfold between now and 2024.

[alfie]

Reckon there are a number of good prospects to put together a strong team (and even spares/heat runners) for the next two years : BUT a lot depends on injuries (or hopefully the lack of them !) Just are never going to have the depth of USA so need all the good ones to be healthy. VO- Jodie- Hunt- Yeargin ?

[carterhatch]

Making any predictions for a quartet in Paris is filled with jeopardy. I do think the discipline of the NCAA relays will hold us in good stead, with Yeargin, Pipi and soon, hopefully, Anning all graduates of the system, and now able to focus on their running, A fit and healthy Hunt may well be inspired to become the female version of Charlie Dobson, and there are half a dozen others who will all be queuing up for 2023 selection... we just need one or two of all these to go sub 50

[jjimbojames]

GBR’s issue is really just the lack of a top talent - in Sanders, we had someone that could rescue a medal, in the same way NED has Bol. Klaver has a pretty similar profile to Jodie, but just fit for consecutive seasons. Beyond that, GBR’s depth is only matched/bettered by by USA and JAM - both countries also relying on non-400m specialists in their relays.

If fully fit, Jodie would have made enough of a gap for Nicole to hold off Bol (she had to run 48.mid to catch her - no way she was running a second faster) and POL only just caught Nicole, so I think we’re in good health. Don’t forget the British ladies have had a champs in between WC and EC, no rest/training bolster etc

[jjimbojames]

Georgina Adam is likely to be inspired by her training partner, too - Charlie Dobson. Looks like she’s travelling the same route in training/races, but is a year behind where he is at. Interesting to see if she can knock any more time off this summer, but also where she is next year

[Sovietvest]

Some comments on another thread that the likes of Nelson and Philip will need to be replaced in the coming years. I think the most exciting prospect of all is Harrow's Nia Wedderburn-Goodison. I've been watching her since her first year U13s. Was quite small compared to her competition in those days - so not one of the early developers, like Fantastic sprinting form - really looks the part. Wouldn't be surprised if she isn't running 11.2 or faster next year (second year U20).

Just as an aside, Vale Of Aylesbury had a girl called Emilia Rock who ran 200/300 at the same YDLs as Nia. I was convinced I was watching a future 400m Olympian - even more impressive than Nia. She's our fastest ever 300m runner at U15. Anyone know what happened to her? Made one appearance in the summer of 2020 but hasn't run since.

[RunUnlimited]

No idea what happened to Rock. No recorded runs since that August 2020 run, and running high 61 seconds doesn't exactly bode well.

I definitely agree with your assessment of NWG. She was supreme in winning the European U18's in July and making the semi finals of the World U20s, with the currently stacked roster of very fast athletes in that age group is no mean feat.

There is also Welsh wonderkid Nell Desir to consider. She has been setting all sorts of Welsh age group records since about the age of 8, currently topped out with her 11.77 she ran just over a week ago at the Welsh Junior Championships, a performance which puts her 5th on the UK all time list for U15s.

[Occasional Hope]

Maybe she just struggled with the move up from 300 to 400?

[trickstat]

Looking at Power of 10, I don't think the move up to 400 was the problem, partly because she hasn't yet competed in an age-group where 400 is the championship distance and she ran a very decent 57 something indoor 400 in 2020 when she was still 14. She also had run quite a few 800s and cross-country races.

[Sovietvest]

I just watched back the Tokyo W4 x 100m because I thought I remembered thinking we were going to get a DQ for the first change. Asha only just caught Imani who set off really early. Depending upon your point of view it was either the perfect hand-over or way too risky. Maybe they should have learned from that near miss?

I thought Kilty and Lewis were really unfair last night to blame Asha for not maintaining her speed and making a second attempt to put it in Imani's hand. Imani was gone and they were at the end of the zone already.

[ilovetnf]

Kilty did comment that the girls have made similar mistakes in the past but got away with it.

[Ladyloz]

I just watched back the Tokyo W4 x 100m because I thought I remembered thinking we were going to get a DQ for the first change. Asha only just caught Imani who set off really early. Depending upon your point of view it was either the perfect hand-over or way too risky. Maybe they should have learned from that near miss?

I thought Kilty and Lewis were really unfair last night to blame Asha for not maintaining her speed and making a second attempt to put it in Imani's hand. Imani was gone and they were at the end of the zone already.

I think there is always going to be an element of risk. I do think they stretch changes, especially for finals but at global champs you probably need to do that. If you play it safe then you sacrifice speed.

[carterhatch]

Chapeau to the men’s 4x100 relay quartet. Winning in a championship record of 37.67 only further highlights what a well drilled team can achieve.

Many, including myself, have spent reams of comments trying to shoehorn the fastest four runners into a viable relay. It’s worth noting that Efoloko is 18^th on Po10, Azu 7^th at the time of their victory. In the qualifiers they turned to ever reliable HAA [28^th!] and a first time outing for Ramdhan [10^th]. Let this be a lesson to me that a highly motivated, organised, well practised, harmonious foursome can often trump speed on paper alone.

A word about NMB, chosen by his peers to ‘captain’ the team at the World Championships, we were witness to his natural leadership qualities with his unselfish moment post 200m silver, when he took time to talk to a disappointed Charlie Dobson. I can well imagine that he spent a great deal of effort to ensure his team mates believed they could win gold.

Reece Prescod’s demeanour throughout this summer is one of a man not enjoying his running, even when winning the bronze in the relay in Oregon. His absence from any relay involvement in Munich was probably for the best, for all parties concerned, but doesn’t bode well for a man fastest on paper. He needs an MHS style turnaround in fortunes; I hope someone at UK Athletics takes a lead on this. Another less obvious candidate for a ‘makeover’ is Edoburun, again little if no involvement in relay in Munich, and surely someone who should be running far more 200s, if not a 400. I’d be surprised if both can justify being included in ‘relay funding’ but I suspect Prescod will be given individual support of some kind.

Again, well done lads, onto Paris…

[MysteryBrick]

NMB deserves all the praise he is getting.

Regarding the rankings, I think it is fairly clear from the UK champs results (Azu 1st, Efoloko 4th) that both are artificially lowly ranked, the victims of high winds. The only *definitely faster* athletes not in that quartet are, I feel, Prescod, Makoyawo and possibly Amo-Dadzie.

[ilovetnf]

Edoburun and Prescod anchored relays in contrasting fashion. Edoburun looked like he enjoyed it. Prescod did not.

[justrunfast]

You guys want everyone to run 400 lol... as if it is that simple. Tall and long stride length doesn't just equal potentially good 400 running.

There's a reason why we have a whole bunch of men and women in the UK stuck around 45-46 and 51-52. Not enough long term development is done in this country to make absolute elite quarter milers. I don't blame the athletes I blame the coaches. Nearly every 400m athlete we have has fallen into it by chance... that is not how you get low 49 women and low 44 men. Look on the power of 10 all time list. All the athletes have the same profiles and similarities apart from one or two differences.


When there is a commitment to developing quarter milers the relay will sort out itself. Instead of living on a hope and pray that athletes switch up their whole training and commit to a whole new event on the chance they can run a good relay leg.

Two examples Jodie Williams and Keely Hodgkinson. These are types of profiles that need to be recognised EARLY which could lead to elite 400m running. Just takes someone with a bit of balls to say you will make an exceptional 400m running lets commit to this on a four year cycle and be ready for the next olympics.

Getting athletes who haven't had joy in one and event and switch through chance is so so hit and miss.

[MysteryBrick]

As a 400m runner of reasonable national quality, I do have a pretty good idea of what makes a good quarter-miler. Yes, tall and long stride length is not just enough, but tall, good speed endurance, enough 200m speed are pretty good barometers. Thus, identifying 200m runners who are better over 200m than 100m and unlikely to make a big leap to top class 200m is a pretty decent guideline.

The problem recently has been that none of our top 400m guys were quick enough over 200m - Chalmers, Lee Thompson, all 21.3 guys at best. Compare that to MHS (started as a 200m runner), Charlie Dobson (20.2) and the like, along with historically Roger Black (20.5), Mark Richardson (20.6) and there's the difference. Just like our 800m guys have now learned that you need a rapid 400m to be successful, the 400m is also starting to realise that you can be as strong as you like but if 21.5 is your peak you're severely limited.

[justrunfast]

That is my point... we have good quarter milers. Not elite. MHS switch was done when he was 20. the year after he ran 20.8 as a junior. More often a junior who runs those times would be kept as a 200m runner because that is seen as world class potential. It could be but coaches need to understand the profile of their athlete and take a risk and commit to running the 400.

I agree it takes a 20.0 200m athlete to have potentially run an elite 400 for men but like I said it is up to coaches to commit. We have had one 44 second runner in the last seven years. That is just no long term planning being done, especially as the event as a whole is moving on. 44 second 400m runners and 49 second women do not happen by chance.

[Loop-guru]

This is an interesting debate. The example I always give is that of Kriss Akabusi. A fairly good 400M runner into his mid twenties winning the Army title every year, At this point in his life he would be ranked between 60 - 100 of todays crop. Switches to Roger Black's training group and after one winter of proper serious training wins an international vest and goes onto have a stellar career and becomes a crucial part of our 4x400M set-up. The law of averages dictates that out of say 100 200M runners and 100 400M runners there are a few that fall into this bracket. It's really about the athlete making that commitment and finding a training group where they can really improve. Another example is Nicole Yeargin. I believe she will one day run sub 50 and maximise her potential as she has put herself in one of the best training groups in the world. However I also do get that the switch up from 200M to 400M does not always work. Toby Harries, Ben Snaith and Thomas Somers have all had a bash at the 400M in recent years but up to this point have all tended to be around the 46.5 mark

[Loop-guru]

Just as an aside I think Joe Ferguson has huge potential for us in the 400M and I wonder if he has any plans in that area. He is racing tonight in Poland in the 100m and 200m against some high class athletes.

[Occasional Hope]

He ran 10.29 and 20.38 respectively.

[justrunfast]

Just as an aside I think Joe Ferguson has huge potential for us in the 400M and I wonder if he has any plans in that area. He is racing tonight in Poland in the 100m and 200m against some high class athletes.

I agree! Especially as he has very good engine

[justrunfast]

The one key point people are regarding athletes switching events. Lets be clear 400 training is an absolute different ball game and mentally is just as hard. It is not about just making the switch to the event it is being prepared to have lactic 2-3x a week compared to maybe moderate lactic session for a sprinter.

The reason lots have failed is because it takes a different level of commitment.

It is literally saying I want you to run close to your 200m PB and keep going... on a weekly basis... people say they are ready for that but 99% aren't and it shows in the results.

[Occasional Hope]

Obviously switching doesn't work for everyone. But it's often worth a try just to see how it goes.

[justrunfast]

And yes I know some will say are athletes should just do xyz, but there is a reason only 17 men and 6 women in the history of athletics in this country have ran 44 and 49

[MysteryBrick]

Oh yes, it's not easy absolutely. But mental strength and ability to handle the load is not something that is measurable before trying, whereas absolute speed and physical characteristics are, hence what this debate is focused on.

If Power of 10 also included a 'hard bastard' measurement, with a score for each athlete, of course that should also feature!