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UK 400m - State of play

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  • carterhatch
    replied
    I am going to use the fact that Victoria Ohuruogu ran a 51.52 PB in Los Angeles, yesterday, to bump this thread forward. While we are having some shoots of progress with the men, I wonder what the season holds for the ladies.

    We are yet to see Jodie Williams or Laviai Nielsen compete [not too concerned by this yet], though in both cases their sisters have been active, with Lina having a very positive start to the year.

    Nicola Yeargin has run the world qualifier already, and I see her as part of a very competitive Scotland 4x400 at the CG [along with Zoey Clark, possibly Beth Dobbin, or even one of Muir/Reekie if Carys McAulay doesnt find 52 sec form]

    Amber Anning [if she doesnt burn herself out again] and our own Stew Coach charge, Yasmin Liverpool, must both be looking to achieve World qualifiers, if only to make case for relay involvement, while Ami Pipi would be keen I'm sure for an early sub 51...

    Of course, Keely Hodgkinson has indicated an interest in being part of any 4 x 400 [most likely the CGs] but I suspect there will be a queue of ladies infront of her time-wise when the selection for Worlds comes round, and no matter how gifted I believe her to be, I am hoping that 4 or 5 other ladies have presented a much more compelling case to start in the relay.

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  • JamieSLA
    commented on 's reply
    Thank you for this, I really want to transition to 400 - fantastic insight. thank you for not hoarding knowledge

  • Occasional Hope
    commented on 's reply
    I had my doubts about Reece Prescod's very short sojourn in the US, but there's something to be said for recognising something's not working for you sooner rather than later...

  • Occasional Hope
    replied
    Agree re MHS. He's gone backwards since going to the US, and some of that is injury, but I too feel he needs more support than most athletes, and I don't believe he's getting it. He probably also needs guidance making the move to a better setup, and UKA needs to provide that. Otherwise we are seeing a natural gift wasted.

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  • carterhatch
    replied
    I am concerned for the mental well being of MHS. It is clear his form has dropped off drastically (although thanks to the BBC I didnt get to see the 'domestic' 400 run last night in Gateshead) ... Maybe Stew-coach has more of an insight - but I have worked with some amazing young people on the 'autistic spectrum' and it takes a real understanding to help them achieve their best - i learnt the hard way, for example, if one superbly gifted lad did not have his lunch at precisely 12.05, the wheels came off, but otherwise he was the hardest working data inputter I've ever known, I couldnt find enough work for him!!

    Alors - someone needs to work with him fast, if he is ever to realise his potential, perhaps our own Stew-coach can offer him a supportive environment, but I would urge Rooney (not wayne) to become a bona fide mentor for him, ( while he is at it, make that the entire young 400m squad) ...

    Emily Diamond had a point to prove last night, and, has clearly presented an argument to the selectors to pick her ahead of Clark & Yeargin in any relay. I hope the later was just going through the motions and not suffering long season, NCAA-itis. I don't know why Laviai Nielsen was not involved last night, but she has a pivitol part to play in the women making the finals in the 4x400m, and hope she has put the disappointment of not making the individuals behind her.

    Jodie Williams was astonishing,.. To get so close to her PB in the 200, and then in less than an hour, return to the track to achieve that very feat with her first sub 51, and looking so strong down the final straight, bodes well. I dont say she will podium in Tokyo, but I would be delighted if she rewrites her PB, and medals with the others girls in the relay.

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  • Stew-Coach
    replied
    What I tend to see, is young athletes especially guys being worked " to the grind" gaining quick development and then stalling or on a revolving wheel of injuries, this is fairly well observed and also in research regarding youth development of the long sprints energy and muscular systems. More so in males but is evident in young ladies too.

    I wrote this article - https://speedendurance.com/2021/04/2...-for-the-400m/
    And the main thing people took away and contacted me about was the 300m sessions ( a staple of most long sprinters training programme). rather than consider how you can use real stacking at race appropriate speeds to build strength. And then I see coaches doing the full on lactate work the entire winter and I just scream silently into my pillow!

    Look at the 400m runners and then look at their 200m time, should be a multiple of around 2.14 /.16 (200x2.14) anything larger i.e. 2.2 indicates not enough appropriate specific endurance. (and that's not just running for the sake of running which is the common theme).

    I see both Mongrel hybrids and more forward thinking ones, what we see now as being "The grind" has moved away from that of the winter work done by Black and Thomas etal and those before. Even the coaches of the era who are still going are grasping on to the previous success by continuing this grind have moved are trying to incorporate, "More Speed Work" so the athletes have cool stuff for instagram but are just not integrating it appropriately (of course this is My opinion and worthless), I watched countless webinars since the start of covid lockdowns, prime opportunity to really push and develop the field, but failed and just re-iterated the same old incomplete scaffolding of information, and so coaches are left with the basic of information that they can find on the internet, which is hit and miss to what you get, and mostly with no context and so no real understanding of the elements at play.
    And so we see this half assed American / British mix of concepts, enough to get someone close, but too diluted and disproportionate to get to the next level (heck I don't think I have the answers on that one either tbf clearly).

    There are some good long sprint coaches now who have taken the time to review programmes and understand the event requirements so they can get the best form their athletes, but on the whole they are at smaller clubs (even for myself at Coventry, no indoor facility only 300 members including kids, no official university affiliation, I got 3 total uni athletes last year as example) its hard to attract talent without prior success. as Athletes want to be in the "to be seen" locations, Loughborough, Brunel, Sheffield, Bath etc and so they go to the same coaches that are currently in the system.

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  • Stew-Coach
    commented on 's reply
    Will be interesting to see the form of all the ladies at the diamond league (some in the main and remaining in the domestic event) as I think this will indicate our main 4 and possible mixed candidates.

    I'll be honest I am perplexed as to why the 9 were named (unless those in the 4h were wanting to be named which i can actually imagine they did and requested it) as of course you can draft any "Team" member in the relays once you are on site and so there was no need to add the 4h crew.

    However, what it does do though is allow the element of a reserve to be used if for any reason someone got injured (If you named 7, one gets injured you can draft another from the 4h, if one of the 4h ladies gets injured, well you never named them so no need to replace. By having them named you could technically now draft in a none travelling reserve (take into account quarantine etc.) )



    I don't think we have yet to fully conceptualise what 400m training is in this country and what that then means for its training intervention ( I mean this as a general term across the coaching population as of course there are pockets of very good coaches and a some living of what they did in the past)

  • Paps
    replied
    Stew-Coach Interesting response regarding coach ed. Do you really think that we've seen a widespread adoption of a more Americanised programme? I still see a great deal more old-school "embrace the grind" mentality and feel I'm going against the current by adopting a hybrid model myself.

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  • carterhatch
    commented on 's reply
    I think Nielsen's loss (not making the individual slection), is the relay's gain, as she will have a point to prove - to herself if no one else - and I agree, being fresh, will be first name down on the list for both the mixed and women's heat. Honestly though, with the standard of our men, I wouldn't be looking to medal, no matter what women were brought in, and so I would go all in for the womens, but you are right Mysterybrick to assess at the time. ideally Pipi-Yeargin-Williams-Nielsen makes podium.

  • MysteryBrick
    commented on 's reply
    Completely agree, Carterhatch. I would not have selected Diamond. Nielsen and Clark are very solid relay runners, and Hannah Williams is on the up. If I were selecting, I would go:

    Nielsen, H Williams in the Mixed 4x400m heats, and then bring in J Williams and Pipi for the final if things look good for a good position.
    Nielsen and the best available other 3 in the W4x400m heats (depending upon how people have raced), unless someone has made a final, in which case bring them in for the W4x400m final.

  • philipo
    replied
    6 per relay short or long.

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  • philipo
    replied
    Am I correct that for WC you are allowed a total of 6 athletes in the relays or have the rules just changed?

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  • carterhatch
    commented on 's reply
    always value your replies MysteryBrick, and I take your point, and probably the selectors reasoning, about individual events and the additon of a mixed relay, but...but...Emily Diamond has shown very little this year, and Megan Beasley is there anyway, in extremis, and if they try to be too clever and 'rest' too many of those taking part in 'individual' events - it could end in tears (I think it was women's 4x200 in 2008, in a 'golden era' of Addlington et al that tried that and failed to make the final where a medal was there for the taking)
    Last edited by carterhatch; 01-07-21, 12:00.

  • MysteryBrick
    commented on 's reply
    I take issue with the 9 - 4 women have been selected for the 4x400m squad, the other 5 are all running individual events. So actually, the squad is smaller than the men's squad...

    That said, I think 8 would have been a more sensible number, as that means they are all likely to run or you only really have 1 injury reserve, The way the selections are, I can see both Clark and Diamond/H Williams not getting a run out at all.

  • carterhatch
    replied
    Stew-Coach - thanks for the candid response up thread ...

    The theme of quality coaching (importance of, lack of, need for) is repeated by many knowledgeable people, over many years, and if I were running UK Athletics, it would be an integral part of any 'special measures' applied to men's 400 running (and Javelin, and, long jump ...)

    What do you think of the fact that nine, 9, yes nine?!, women have been selected for the 4x400 'squad' for Tokyo?

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