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UK 400m - State of play

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  • #16
    Am I correct that for WC you are allowed a total of 6 athletes in the relays or have the rules just changed?

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    • #17
      6 per relay short or long.

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      • #18
        Stew-Coach Interesting response regarding coach ed. Do you really think that we've seen a widespread adoption of a more Americanised programme? I still see a great deal more old-school "embrace the grind" mentality and feel I'm going against the current by adopting a hybrid model myself.

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        • #19
          What I tend to see, is young athletes especially guys being worked " to the grind" gaining quick development and then stalling or on a revolving wheel of injuries, this is fairly well observed and also in research regarding youth development of the long sprints energy and muscular systems. More so in males but is evident in young ladies too.

          I wrote this article - https://speedendurance.com/2021/04/2...-for-the-400m/
          And the main thing people took away and contacted me about was the 300m sessions ( a staple of most long sprinters training programme). rather than consider how you can use real stacking at race appropriate speeds to build strength. And then I see coaches doing the full on lactate work the entire winter and I just scream silently into my pillow!

          Look at the 400m runners and then look at their 200m time, should be a multiple of around 2.14 /.16 (200x2.14) anything larger i.e. 2.2 indicates not enough appropriate specific endurance. (and that's not just running for the sake of running which is the common theme).

          I see both Mongrel hybrids and more forward thinking ones, what we see now as being "The grind" has moved away from that of the winter work done by Black and Thomas etal and those before. Even the coaches of the era who are still going are grasping on to the previous success by continuing this grind have moved are trying to incorporate, "More Speed Work" so the athletes have cool stuff for instagram but are just not integrating it appropriately (of course this is My opinion and worthless), I watched countless webinars since the start of covid lockdowns, prime opportunity to really push and develop the field, but failed and just re-iterated the same old incomplete scaffolding of information, and so coaches are left with the basic of information that they can find on the internet, which is hit and miss to what you get, and mostly with no context and so no real understanding of the elements at play.
          And so we see this half assed American / British mix of concepts, enough to get someone close, but too diluted and disproportionate to get to the next level (heck I don't think I have the answers on that one either tbf clearly).

          There are some good long sprint coaches now who have taken the time to review programmes and understand the event requirements so they can get the best form their athletes, but on the whole they are at smaller clubs (even for myself at Coventry, no indoor facility only 300 members including kids, no official university affiliation, I got 3 total uni athletes last year as example) its hard to attract talent without prior success. as Athletes want to be in the "to be seen" locations, Loughborough, Brunel, Sheffield, Bath etc and so they go to the same coaches that are currently in the system.

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          • JamieSLA
            JamieSLA commented
            Editing a comment
            Thank you for this, I really want to transition to 400 - fantastic insight. thank you for not hoarding knowledge

        • #20
          I am concerned for the mental well being of MHS. It is clear his form has dropped off drastically (although thanks to the BBC I didnt get to see the 'domestic' 400 run last night in Gateshead) ... Maybe Stew-coach has more of an insight - but I have worked with some amazing young people on the 'autistic spectrum' and it takes a real understanding to help them achieve their best - i learnt the hard way, for example, if one superbly gifted lad did not have his lunch at precisely 12.05, the wheels came off, but otherwise he was the hardest working data inputter I've ever known, I couldnt find enough work for him!!

          Alors - someone needs to work with him fast, if he is ever to realise his potential, perhaps our own Stew-coach can offer him a supportive environment, but I would urge Rooney (not wayne) to become a bona fide mentor for him, ( while he is at it, make that the entire young 400m squad) ...

          Emily Diamond had a point to prove last night, and, has clearly presented an argument to the selectors to pick her ahead of Clark & Yeargin in any relay. I hope the later was just going through the motions and not suffering long season, NCAA-itis. I don't know why Laviai Nielsen was not involved last night, but she has a pivitol part to play in the women making the finals in the 4x400m, and hope she has put the disappointment of not making the individuals behind her.

          Jodie Williams was astonishing,.. To get so close to her PB in the 200, and then in less than an hour, return to the track to achieve that very feat with her first sub 51, and looking so strong down the final straight, bodes well. I dont say she will podium in Tokyo, but I would be delighted if she rewrites her PB, and medals with the others girls in the relay.

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          • #21
            Agree re MHS. He's gone backwards since going to the US, and some of that is injury, but I too feel he needs more support than most athletes, and I don't believe he's getting it. He probably also needs guidance making the move to a better setup, and UKA needs to provide that. Otherwise we are seeing a natural gift wasted.

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            • Occasional Hope
              Occasional Hope commented
              Editing a comment
              I had my doubts about Reece Prescod's very short sojourn in the US, but there's something to be said for recognising something's not working for you sooner rather than later...

          • #22
            I am going to use the fact that Victoria Ohuruogu ran a 51.52 PB in Los Angeles, yesterday, to bump this thread forward. While we are having some shoots of progress with the men, I wonder what the season holds for the ladies.

            We are yet to see Jodie Williams or Laviai Nielsen compete [not too concerned by this yet], though in both cases their sisters have been active, with Lina having a very positive start to the year.

            Nicola Yeargin has run the world qualifier already, and I see her as part of a very competitive Scotland 4x400 at the CG [along with Zoey Clark, possibly Beth Dobbin, or even one of Muir/Reekie if Carys McAulay doesnt find 52 sec form]

            Amber Anning [if she doesnt burn herself out again] and our own Stew Coach charge, Yasmin Liverpool, must both be looking to achieve World qualifiers, if only to make case for relay involvement, while Ami Pipi would be keen I'm sure for an early sub 51...

            Of course, Keely Hodgkinson has indicated an interest in being part of any 4 x 400 [most likely the CGs] but I suspect there will be a queue of ladies infront of her time-wise when the selection for Worlds comes round, and no matter how gifted I believe her to be, I am hoping that 4 or 5 other ladies have presented a much more compelling case to start in the relay.

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            • #23
              Given Keely has.the Wild Card for Worlds I wonder if as with Indoors we may well see her compete over 400m at the British Champs.

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              • jjimbojames
                jjimbojames commented
                Editing a comment
                Makes sense - that or she’ll have to have run a quick 400m time on the circuit, when it would be harder to get into a decent race

              • trickstat
                trickstat commented
                Editing a comment
                I think it's also quite possible for her as a relative 400 novice and 800 specialist that she would run quicker in a final after a round or two before than in a one-off race going in 'cold'.

            • #24
              Originally posted by carterhatch View Post
              I am going to use the fact that Victoria Ohuruogu ran a 51.52 PB in Los Angeles, yesterday, to bump this thread forward. While we are having some shoots of progress with the men, I wonder what the season holds for the ladies.

              We are yet to see Jodie Williams or Laviai Nielsen compete [not too concerned by this yet], though in both cases their sisters have been active, with Lina having a very positive start to the year.

              Nicola Yeargin has run the world qualifier already, and I see her as part of a very competitive Scotland 4x400 at the CG [along with Zoey Clark, possibly Beth Dobbin, or even one of Muir/Reekie if Carys McAulay doesnt find 52 sec form]

              Amber Anning [if she doesnt burn herself out again] and our own Stew Coach charge, Yasmin Liverpool, must both be looking to achieve World qualifiers, if only to make case for relay involvement, while Ami Pipi would be keen I'm sure for an early sub 51...

              Of course, Keely Hodgkinson has indicated an interest in being part of any 4 x 400 [most likely the CGs] but I suspect there will be a queue of ladies infront of her time-wise when the selection for Worlds comes round, and no matter how gifted I believe her to be, I am hoping that 4 or 5 other ladies have presented a much more compelling case to start in the relay.
              Victoria's progression continues to gather pace... Can she go sub 51 this year? Just outside the WC standard, it would be great to see her as an individual athlete at either the CWG or Euros.

              And with her doing so well, she is putting herself squarely in place for a position on GB's 4x400m relay squad too.

              I'm sure her big sis is very pleased too.

              Comment


              • #25
                The women are tough to call on selection - Jodie aside, there’s a bunch of women around the same times, plus people like Emily Diamond who are relay beasts, even when their open times don’t reflect it…and some who have fast open times but are not great for the relay! Throw in the 4H’ers and Keely and there’s about 10 women in the mix

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                • #26
                  I was just realising that there are 3 pairs of British sisters (one being twins) who have both run under 52 and all but one of these 6 are still active.

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                  • LoveSprints1
                    LoveSprints1 commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Cheriece is training and looking to be in good shape and Shannon is out for the season after rupturing her achilles in training recently. No idea who coaches them.

                  • carterhatch
                    carterhatch commented
                    Editing a comment
                    thank you for the update, LoveSprints. Sorry to hear about Shannon's injury, I hope Cheriece has a fulfilling season.

                  • RunUnlimited
                    RunUnlimited commented
                    Editing a comment
                    LoveSprints1 Geeze, its like both those sisters are cursed or something. If one of them is fit, the other is injured, or vice versa, and usually the injuries are really bad ones that take them literally years to work back from.

                    Hopefully Shannon will make a full recovery and the news regarding Cheriece is at least heartening to hear.

                • #27
                  Alex Haydock-Wilson quoted saying "I think the British 400m record is going in this Olympic cycle. If it's not going to be Matthew Hudson-Smith, then it will either be me, Charlie Dobson or Ed Faulds."

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                  • #28
                    Originally posted by Occasional Hope View Post
                    Alex Haydock-Wilson quoted saying "I think the British 400m record is going in this Olympic cycle. If it's not going to be Matthew Hudson-Smith, then it will either be me, Charlie Dobson or Ed Faulds."
                    he should stop bumping his gums until he runs under 45 seconds

                    Comment


                    • drobbie
                      drobbie commented
                      Editing a comment
                      i agree that hudson smith should break it this year, but the other three are not even close at the moment, theres mhs who is world classish at his best and then about 10 guys who havent broken 45.5 and are not even european class. ahw has looked promising this year as has dobson in the 200, but he has a long way to go, the 400 and 400 hurdles are our weakest track eventsat the moment and we could really be doing with a bunch of guys around late 44's / low 45's to comepte in the 2 400 relay events that men are eligible for

                    • Loop-guru
                      Loop-guru commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Alex's start to the season compared to last season hints at a peak of the season for him of an improvement of 1.2 secs(which he did last year) from his season opener which is fairly standard for most 400m runners. This implies he should peak at 44.37 so I don't think his comments are misplaced. I do think he is the fourth most likely of the quartet to achieve it though. As a point of comparison Jodie Williams opened with 52.01 last year and ended with a best of 49.97

                    • drobbie
                      drobbie commented
                      Editing a comment
                      hopefully , we have 4 runners at that standard by the end of the summer, should allow us to compete for medals in the long relays, ill wait and see though

                  • #29
                    I'd just be happy if there was a 400m domestic race this season where the starters included MHS, AHW, Dobson and Faulds, where none were DQ'd, they all finished uninjured and a couple of PBs were achieved ... though I fear the odds for that happening are slim.
                    Last edited by carterhatch; 12-05-22, 10:26.

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                    • Stew-Coach
                      Stew-Coach commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Id feel wrong in naming before wider public awareness, but will become clear via lack of racing and not being at the DL, but unfortunately a very good talent!!

                    • carterhatch
                      carterhatch commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Understand and respect, Stew-coach, your reply... it was all looking too good to be true, anyway ...
                      Last edited by carterhatch; 12-05-22, 20:57.

                    • MysteryBrick
                      MysteryBrick commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Really hoping it's not Dobson, but I bet it is...

                  • #30
                    46.12 PB for Ethan Brown, narrowly missing making the Big 12 400m final. Due to get down the 45s soon...

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