Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Caster Semenya loses appeal

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Caster Semenya loses appeal

    Sigh of relief. Women's sport has a future, at least for a while.
    Not that I agree with the IAAF's strange limiting of the testosterone regs to 400m to a mile. Or that they have been too coy to tell it like it is from the very start. Which has led them down this painful and dangerous path imo.

  • #2
    Wow, I really wasn't expecting CAS to rule for the IAAF! (although it's the right decision, of course).

    As far as I understand, due to the ruling being delayed from March, the intersex athletes will be able to compete in the 400 to 1500 in the Doha WCh if they lower their testosterone to the proscribed limit now and keep doing so until then. Originally, it was going to have to be for 6 months before competing.

    EDIT: Uh oh, according to the thread on LetsRun (I haven't yet read the CAS ruling or press release) there's something about this not being applied to the 1500 yet because of a lack of evidence ?

    EDIT 2: I see now that it is only a suggestion by CAS that the rules not be applied to the 1500/Mile yet. I guess we will see in the next few days what the IAAF have decided to do regarding that.
    Last edited by LuckySpikes; 01-05-19, 14:00.

    Comment


    • #3
      Oh, FFS! The Supreme Court in Switzerland has instructed the IAAF to suspend the new rules "until the decision on the request for issuance of provisional measures" whatever that means.

      https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/48504205

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by LuckySpikes View Post
        Oh, FFS! The Supreme Court in Switzerland has instructed the IAAF to suspend the new rules "until the decision on the request for issuance of provisional measures" whatever that means.

        https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/48504205
        Why the heck the IAAF has to listen to the Federal Swiss courts is beyond me; the IAAF promised to abide by the CAS decision and now that dreadful intersex and the SA have persuaded the Swiss that the decision of highest Court in Sport,CAS, is not valid. CRAZY ??? You bet.

        Comment


        • #5
          Reading a little more into it, it's not a done decision yet. Just a temporary measure until the Swiss Supreme Court makes its actual decision in 2-3 months time and apparently a measure that doesn't indicate one way or the other what they will finally decide. So until that time the DSD athletes are free to compete in all events.

          I think part of the agreement when setting up CAS was that any appeals would go through the Swiss Supreme Court, hence why they have jurisdiction in this matter.

          Comment


          • #6
            absolutely sick of this cheating clown, shes managed to wriggle out of it for a few more months now

            Comment


            • #7
              Very messy situation. She hasn't actually done anything wrong, she just has a genetic advantage & for that she is being punished. Forced to take medication which could do God knows what else to her body. Michael Phelps also had a great genetic advantage (one which I would LOVE to have!). People just called him lucky.

              If they're going to rule that she has T levels akin to those of a man, & as such they will have to be supressed via medicatio - As men have a varying T level genetically, will men with low T levels now be able to legally take supplements to increase their natural levels to that of someone with a higher count?

              Very basic theoretic example - Andre De Grasse has a natural level of 9 which is legal, while Alonso Edward has a natural level of 4. Can Edward legally take testosterone supplements to bring himself up to level 9 & as such get stronger & faster - which is what they're trying to suppress in Semenya?!

              Also, their ruling of "between 400-Mile events" - are they suggesting that if she trained for 200m that her T levels wouldn't help her?! Or are they just putting out a blanket to cover the likely events that she'd excel at?! (I know the answer already!)

              Like I said, very messy situation. She's not a cheat & she's being treated like one, & called a lot worse by the vile & anonymous Einsteins on the internet.

              Comment


              • LongStrider
                LongStrider commented
                Editing a comment
                Well said! Humanity is restored. Was worried I wouldn't see a view that didn't absolutely batter her.

            • #8
              Originally posted by camerajuan View Post
              Very messy situation. She hasn't actually done anything wrong, she just has a genetic advantage & for that she is being punished. Forced to take medication which could do God knows what else to her body. Michael Phelps also had a great genetic advantage (one which I would LOVE to have!). People just called him lucky.

              If they're going to rule that she has T levels akin to those of a man, & as such they will have to be supressed via medicatio - As men have a varying T level genetically, will men with low T levels now be able to legally take supplements to increase their natural levels to that of someone with a higher count?

              Very basic theoretic example - Andre De Grasse has a natural level of 9 which is legal, while Alonso Edward has a natural level of 4. Can Edward legally take testosterone supplements to bring himself up to level 9 & as such get stronger & faster - which is what they're trying to suppress in Semenya?!

              Also, their ruling of "between 400-Mile events" - are they suggesting that if she trained for 200m that her T levels wouldn't help her?! Or are they just putting out a blanket to cover the likely events that she'd excel at?! (I know the answer already!)

              Like I said, very messy situation. She's not a cheat & she's being treated like one, & called a lot worse by the vile & anonymous Einsteins on the internet.
              No one is forcing her to take any medication. And the Michael Phelps comparison is not valid. Semenya & the other DSD athletes have an XY chromosome that (for the want of a better term) "biologically-normal" women do not have. Hence their advantage. Now, if Phelps had some advantageous "alien chromosome" that other men do not have then yes, he should not be allowed to compete with men without some correction. But, as it is, he fits perfectly into the male category. Semenya, Niyonsaba & Wambui do not fit perfectly into the female category.

              The reason why the ruling only covered 400 to the Mile is because the IAAF had the most data/evidence for those events. They simply didn't have enough data from DSD athletes in other events to make firm scientific conclusions about those events.

              Comment


              • #9
                Originally posted by camerajuan View Post
                Very messy situation. She hasn't actually done anything wrong, she just has a genetic advantage & for that she is being punished. Forced to take medication which could do God knows what else to her body. Michael Phelps also had a great genetic advantage (one which I would LOVE to have!). People just called him lucky.

                If they're going to rule that she has T levels akin to those of a man, & as such they will have to be supressed via medicatio - As men have a varying T level genetically, will men with low T levels now be able to legally take supplements to increase their natural levels to that of someone with a higher count?

                Very basic theoretic example - Andre De Grasse has a natural level of 9 which is legal, while Alonso Edward has a natural level of 4. Can Edward legally take testosterone supplements to bring himself up to level 9 & as such get stronger & faster - which is what they're trying to suppress in Semenya?!

                Also, their ruling of "between 400-Mile events" - are they suggesting that if she trained for 200m that her T levels wouldn't help her?! Or are they just putting out a blanket to cover the likely events that she'd excel at?! (I know the answer already!)

                Like I said, very messy situation. She's not a cheat & she's being treated like one, & called a lot worse by the vile & anonymous Einsteins on the internet.
                With internal testes (see CAS appeal papers) and testosterone at male levels Semenya has the same genetic advantage as males have over females generally. In sporting terms Semenya is a male. When will people wake up to the fact that this Usain Bolt/Michael Phelps 'genetic advantage' argument is a load of bollox? (pun intended)
                How would they draw the line between men and women in sports such as Athletics?

                Having been aware of the situation since at least 2009 Semenya has been living a lie for 10 years and is not the innocent victim some still naively believe. The South African PR manipulating public opinion is first class.
                Last edited by Laps; 04-06-19, 12:29.

                Comment


                • LongStrider
                  LongStrider commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Living a lie? What lie? She's a woman.. it isn't and never was her responsibility to govern this at all. Blame the IAAF, don't blame her - all she did was be born, grow up, train and race. I can't imagine how difficult it must be to be her right now. Completely outcasted for not outing herself as being different, something she never wanted to be. Yep, sure - her being 'intersex' (f*cking awful category to be called) of course has given her an advantage, but she's hardly a fraud for competing when she's been allowed to.
                  Last edited by LongStrider; 04-06-19, 16:22.

              • #10
                It's a shame that this appeal / injunction came out once we'd all assumed that the CAS outcome was the final say on the matter. Whether you like the IAAF solution or not, at least it is an attempt to address the issue clearly. But it has to be lawful too, so on balance i'd rather have it tested at this stage in the courts than wait for a couple of years, have it re-opened and then have to have the rules re-written again.

                I do think the language of "cheat" etc is grossly unfair on Semenya, and doesn't do justice either to the legitimate arguments about why her inclusion (and others) in female sports creates such potential perceived unfairness.

                Presumably IAAF is incorporated in Switzerland, hence they have jurisdiction over what the IAAF does, in the same way that the French legal system has jurisdiction over the FIA (motorsport). Wherever the legal body that administers a sport is based is typically the source of the ultimate administrative laws that allow that body to work. We might think of them as being "international", but there is no universally accepted "law" about how public bodies act, so bodies like the IAAF need to pick a base and then suffer the consequences. Or move!

                Comment


                • #11
                  Originally posted by LuckySpikes View Post

                  No one is forcing her to take any medication. And the Michael Phelps comparison is not valid. Semenya & the other DSD athletes have an XY chromosome that (for the want of a better term) "biologically-normal" women do not have. Hence their advantage. Now, if Phelps had some advantageous "alien chromosome" that other men do not have then yes, he should not be allowed to compete with men without some correction. But, as it is, he fits perfectly into the male category. Semenya, Niyonsaba & Wambui do not fit perfectly into the female category.

                  The reason why the ruling only covered 400 to the Mile is because the IAAF had the most data/evidence for those events. They simply didn't have enough data from DSD athletes in other events to make firm scientific conclusions about those events.
                  Ummm, Phelps' gender is not in question. It's his genetics I'm talking about & it absolutely is a valid argument. He produced half the amount of lactic acid as his competitors, reducing the recovery time, decreasing his chance of injury etc. I could go on, but it was absolutely a genetic advantage. He was never asked to medicate to increase his lactic acid & his competitors would not be permitted to take medication to reduce theirs, in order to be on the same level. Phelps was called lucky.

                  If you look at it purely based on fact, Semenya is exactly the same, she has a natural genetic advantage. I don't care for personal slurs or opinions as they're completely irrelevant to the argument & a clear indicator that someone has nothing else to say on the matter.

                  Comment


                  • #12
                    Originally posted by Laps View Post

                    With internal testes (see CAS appeal papers) and testosterone at male levels Semenya has the same genetic advantage as males have over females generally. In sporting terms Semenya is a male. When will people wake up to the fact that this Usain Bolt/Michael Phelps 'genetic advantage' argument is a load of bollox? (pun intended)
                    How would they draw the line between men and women in sports such as Athletics?

                    Having been aware of the situation since at least 2009 Semenya has been living a lie for 10 years and is not the innocent victim some still naively believe. The South African PR manipulating public opinion is first class.
                    Again, the Phelps argument is not bollox but the exact same - a genetic advantage over his competitors which was never called into question.

                    Never mentioned Bolt once, not sure why you did.

                    Semenya is not cheating. Her body is made up differently than everyone elses, naturally. Nor is she a man, despite what the really kind people on the internet might say.

                    Comment


                    • #13
                      Bottom line, if she's forced to medicate in order to compete against women in her chosen events, it opens up a whole new precedent for TUEs in men with low T levels.

                      Comment


                      • #14
                        Originally posted by camerajuan View Post

                        Again, the Phelps argument is not bollox but the exact same - a genetic advantage over his competitors which was never called into question.

                        Never mentioned Bolt once, not sure why you did.

                        Semenya is not cheating. Her body is made up differently than everyone elses, naturally. Nor is she a man, despite what the really kind people on the internet might say.
                        Surely you can see the difference between genetic variations between male competitors, the Phelps example, and the situation where a person is biologically intersex possessing in this case the key organs which allow males to be greatly superior in performance over females at the elite level. You say "Nor is she a man" but in sporting terms that is exactly what she is.

                        Comment


                        • #15
                          Originally posted by camerajuan View Post
                          Very messy situation. She hasn't actually done anything wrong, she just has a genetic advantage & for that she is being punished. Forced to take medication which could do God knows what else to her body. Michael Phelps also had a great genetic advantage (one which I would LOVE to have!). People just called him lucky.

                          If they're going to rule that she has T levels akin to those of a man, & as such they will have to be supressed via medicatio - As men have a varying T level genetically, will men with low T levels now be able to legally take supplements to increase their natural levels to that of someone with a higher count?

                          Very basic theoretic example - Andre De Grasse has a natural level of 9 which is legal, while Alonso Edward has a natural level of 4. Can Edward legally take testosterone supplements to bring himself up to level 9 & as such get stronger & faster - which is what they're trying to suppress in Semenya?!

                          Also, their ruling of "between 400-Mile events" - are they suggesting that if she trained for 200m that her T levels wouldn't help her?! Or are they just putting out a blanket to cover the likely events that she'd excel at?! (I know the answer already!)

                          Like I said, very messy situation. She's not a cheat & she's being treated like one, & called a lot worse by the vile & anonymous Einsteins on the internet.
                          she has done something wrong, she knows she has an advantage and continues to try and exploit it

                          as for the phelps comparison he had a natural genetic advantge, which isnt different to any of the other swimmers at the top level, semenyas advantage is unatural as its impossible for xx women to have it

                          the medication is the pill and is harmless

                          nope as the men all fit within the normal male spectrum, semenya isnt in the normal female spectrum, normal female levels are 0.1 to 1.8 nmol/l casters is over three times as high as the highest natural amount over 5 nmol/l an unatural level for xx women to have, you basic theorstic example is nonsense if andre de grasses natural level is 9 and the maximum male level is 10 then a male version of caster would have 30

                          their ruling of between 400 and the mile are the only ones they have enough data for the cas to accept at the moment, they were sent away to get that data the first time around and will be working on data for the other events

                          she is a cheat and a horrible human being, sick of her and her attitude, her wins are absolutely worthless
                          Last edited by drobbie; 04-06-19, 15:00.

                          Comment

                          Working...
                          X