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  • #91
    I think I need to give up my Track Judge Level 1 - I'd have called so many of these incidents completely differently to the IAAF Judges (who to be fair slightly outrank someone who never ventures beyond the YDL and SAL leagues!).

    Nakaayi in the W800m semi - I'd have DQ'd her without hesitation.

    Awarding a bronze to Ortega was shocking. I believe in a thing called 'bad luck' and I believe the finish line determines the finishing order, subject to DQs. I thought the IAAF were playing to the casual TV viewer's sense of 'fairness' and have been really shocked to see the whole world disagrees with me!

    I thought Filip inititated the clash with Lemi by leaning into him. I then saw Lemi cut across him in a move that was illegal. How can he get from lane 1, shoulder to shoulder (their shoulders are literally touching) with Filip, to being out in lane 2, directly ahead of Filip, without having been guilty of obstruction? If you do that you risk being tripped, so when it happened my view was he brought it upon himself and did not deserve to be reinstated. I completely disagreed with Crammy that the cut across from Filip was illegal or aggressive. He had just had his path obstructed by Lemi and was veering to the inside to avoid being further disadvantaged. Had Filip placed a flat hand on Lemi, I would have said the whole incident was 6 of one and half a dozen of the other and as long as no one else suffered i would not have DQ'd him. But that clenched fist was a level of aggression that tipped it over the edge and I would have DQ'd him.

    All that said - and I know this does not reflect well on me - I LOVE the way the Ingebrigtsens stand up to the East Africans. To put it in a wider context - they were on the receiving end of some rough-house tactics in the 5000 and that may have been a factor in Filip's reaction. And MD is a contact sport!


    • larkim
      larkim commented
      Editing a comment
      A lot of me agrees with your view on Ortega, but I posted earlier yesterday wondering what should happen when something completely out of your control, and in the control of another athlete, destroys your race in a 110mH race. It's so easy to fix in the heats by simply advancing the affected athlete, but the absence of a remedy in a final is challenging, especially where it was fairly clear that Ortega at worst was robbed of the chance to compete for a medal by virtue of where he was in the race with just 2 barriers to cross. It was so close to the end that there could be no coming back from it. The actual medallists are unaffected by it, he effectively gets a "participation" medal :-) It's such a low impact resolution IN THIS CASE that it seems fair. The issue is more of whether it will need to be raised across other events or less clear cut scenarios in the future I suppose.

    • Sovietvest
      Sovietvest commented
      Editing a comment
      The clinching argument for me, larkim, is that as an athlete, I would hate to get a medal in those circumstances. I'd be embarrassed and it would feel devalued. I'd rather be driven by righteous indignation to do better next time!

  • #92
    Originally posted by treadwater1
    A slightly different take on yesterday’s event, phenomenal performances from Kat but I have to disagree that Thiams injury was crucial. Thiam was on 4042 after day one, last year in Berlin her day one score was 3930. Her Berlin score (6816) was the second best of her career at that point, I genuinely think she faltered because of the pressure KJT put on her, her body language was not as confident as it normally is, she couldn’t respond in the long jump like she so often has as she realised Kats score was insurmountable. I suppose it shows she’s human after all. The elbow injury wasn’t crucial as the contest was already over at that point. Remember she threw 53m in Rio when she appeared to be in much more pain. I sincerely hope she can make a full recovery, but I suspect she would need surgery as it’s a reoccurring problem.
    You’re spot on about the pressure aspect. It does funny things to people and is exactly the same point, from a different angle, that I was making about Dasher in the 200. She wasn’t pressured at all and had it all her own way....who knows how she’d have reacted with SMU etc breathing down her neck. That Kat was able to exert that pressure right from the start was massive.

    The really pleasing thing over and above mental resilience was that the penny seems to have dropped that the biggest gains were to be made by fixing her bad events and not trying to squeeze out marginal gains in her very good ones. Similarly, Jess became a better heptathlete when she improved her throws at the slight expense of her HJ.


    • Ladyloz
      Ladyloz commented
      Editing a comment
      She had to improve her throws, no doubt about that. But I do think she has finally started to do herself justice in the LJ in Heptathlons. Berlin was a turning point there and 6.77 was an excellent return yesterday. Too much to expect her to jump circa 6.90 on day 2 of the Heptathlon but someone of her calibre we should expect 6.6x as a par performance and 6.7x as a good performance.

  • #93
    Originally posted by RunUnlimited

    Well, until such time as she fails a test or likewise, then I'm going to take hers (and Miller-Uibo's) performances tonight on face value and call them incredible, not "unbelieveable" performances... Like how Gred Lemond called Lance Armstrong's performance in the first of his 7 consecutive TdF "victories" when he was interviewed afterwards by the press, he called them "unbelieveable"... because he knew that Lance and the other riders coming through in that era were doping, but couldn't come out and say it because of the support system Armstrong had around him that would attack anybody casting suspicion his way.

    I can understand people being suspicious... No female 400m runner has run as fast since Marita Koch's WR run in '85 - and that performance was almost certainly performance enhanced (and possibly wind aided too). But I'll always give the benefit of the doubt to the athlete unless it was clear something was going on that makes their runs look suspect.
    I have a very unscientific set of criteria for deciding if an athlete / performance is suspicious. In no particular order:
    1) Huge improvement beyond a 'normal' progression. Even for someone of her age almost a second off her pb was jaw dropping.
    2) Current or former coach worked with athletes caught doping (in her early career he was with a Bulgarian who coached Adekoya)
    3) Trains sometimes 'off the beaten track' - she has been known to train in Baku.
    4) Appearance changes and / or, like Naser, has acne.
    5) Runs a time only dopers have beaten.
    6) Doesn't look particularly tired afterwards.
    7) Is able to put high quality races back to back in quick succession - 5 races in 5 days.
    8) From a country or competing for a country with a bad doping record. Nigeria AND Bahrain?!?!?

    That was one of the greatest races I've ever seen and I really enjoyed it but I found myself laughing at the absurdity of it as a performance. I think the message to dodgy coaches is that if you have an athlete as good as her - she's clearly hugely naturally talented - don't dope them too much because they'll do something that gives the game away! It's what I call the Aden/Dibaba rule established after Dibaba's 1500m WR.


    • Stew-Coach
      Stew-Coach commented
      Editing a comment
      she is only 21 though, so progression of a second id say could be standard. I coached a girl this year who took off 2.5 sec and we hope for a 1.5 again going into 2020 and she will also be 21 next year.

      Last year she ran sub 50 a fair few times (49.08)

      Her change in physique at that age with the training load, doesn't raise an issue in my eyes and as for skin, again she only 21 who trains super hard. (long to short)

      of course not saying she isn't or is, just those elements are fully explainable and standard

    • Sovietvest
      Sovietvest commented
      Editing a comment
      I fully accept all of your counter-points Stew-Coach and Laps. Taken individually each of the criteria can be countered. For example, Schippers has acne and Hassan broke a record set by a doper but because they don't tick many other boxes, I don't suspect them. It's more the combination of factors that make me dubious about Naser.

      I would even go further than Stew Coach and say a 0.9 second improvement for a 21 year old is the norm. However, we're not talking about a 21 year old with a 55 second PB. We're talking about someone who has been training at an elite level for more than 3 years and reached world class as a junior. Others who became world class as juniors do not typically then drop a further second, or if they do it is over several years.

  • #94
    Long time lurker, first time poster.

    One thing I found myself wondering during the HJ with Thiam and now especially was if she was snatching at it and trying a bit too hard because she knew she wasn't going to do as well as normal in the javelin? She seemed a bit out of sorts in he HJ more so than any other event, failures at heights she'd usually fly over. Maybe she wanted more there to counteract the points she knew she was likely not going to get in the javelin. The HJ is a huge point event for her and it looked like she was just pressing too much and losing the rhythm.

    I do think some of her performance was down to disrupted season with a few injuries. But equally it was about the pressure she was feeling from JT which was new, last Euro's there was some pressure from KJT but not quite like this. This was consistent in every event, she was having pb's or close to pb's. Delivering in her banker events big time when Thiam wasn't doing the same in her banker events. KJT put it al together for the first time in a big way, I do think last season was a big confidence booster for her winning some titles, finishing second in the euro's after having a solid 2 days and not letting herself down in an event. This year she's seemed to really knock on from there and take it to the next level. she also looked really relaxed whereas Thiam was the one who looked more stressed. It looked almost easy for KJT finally after often looking like such hard work for her.

    I have to say I really like their rivalry because they have different strengths and weaknesses so it helps to keep things interesting right to the end. Until now I felt Thiam had done more to overcome her weaknesses than KJT had but not it seems that in that regard things have become a lot more equal. I hope they can both have uninterrupted preparation for Tokyo and both come in injury free. Thiam has also finished her schooling now which should free up some time, not sure whether that's a good thing or not as she'd been in this studying routine for quite a few years now and having a distraction from athletics can sometimes be a good thing to help you not become too fixated on athletics and have another outlet.

    I'm really excited for Tokyo for the battle between them, I hope it goes right to the wire. Their battle in Rio over the HJ was a real highlight for me, I'd love them to be able to battle over the entire hept next time.


    • carterhatch
      carterhatch commented
      Editing a comment
      Welcome nutsos, and a nice summary for your first post. I have noticed a real uplift in the number of posters before and during this World championships and it has been a joy to see - having bemoaned the demise of this forum not too long ago, at the height of spamming. Much like KJT we have had to hit rock bottom to rise once more.

  • #95
    A fully fit Thaima and KJT could be electric next year. Hopefully, we will all temper our expectations > I can see a few being disappointed if KJT doesnt run sub 13.10 or even 13, throw 13.60 plus or 14m. and throw 44 m plus.


    • Sovietvest
      Sovietvest commented
      Editing a comment
      I was going to post the same. She was feeling it in Rio and Gotzis as well. Aside from the concern about whether it will ever be right - years of hardly ever throwing a jav in training will start to impact what she can throw in competition (as we saw last night). I'd actually be surprised to see her in a Hept after Tokyo. She has her HJ to focus on and let's face it how many Heptathletes manage more than 3 years as World #1? You'd have expected people lie Shouaa and Barber to dominate for years but the event takes its toll mentally and physically.

  • #96
    The bottom line from the KJT Thiam story is that now we can be 100% confident, based on actual hept performances that both of them have put in, that if they are both fit the end result should be too close to call at the start of day 2, and even at the end of the javelin in Tokyo. Whether you're a flag waver or just a supporter, that should be a mouthwatering prospect! Short of one of them PBing across the board we should expect it to be close, and the best athlete on the day will win.


    • #97
      Originally posted by larkim
      The bottom line from the KJT Thiam story is that now we can be 100% confident, based on actual hept performances that both of them have put in, that if they are both fit the end result should be too close to call at the start of day 2, and even at the end of the javelin in Tokyo. Whether you're a flag waver or just a supporter, that should be a mouthwatering prospect! Short of one of them PBing across the board we should expect it to be close, and the best athlete on the day will win.
      Agreed and if there is someone to push KJT in the 200 and 800 those times will come down.


      • #98
        Who do we think could emerge from the pack, like Thiam did in 2016 to challenge the big two? Oosterwegel is just 21. Williams or Bougard maybe? Ruckstuhl and Shukh seem to have stalled. Too early for Niamh.